A4, can it easily and reliably handle more power?

I'm seriously debating on what car I should get next, as my play car/sometimes DD.  I'm having a hard time narrowing it down, but need to make my list shorter, hence this post.

Looking to spend between $10 and 14g total, for car and mods combined. Don't worry about labor.

Currently, like you see in the sig, have a '96 Eagle Talon FWD 5 spd Turbo, basically all stock, with a well kept and tuned high mileage engine that still runs strong.  To mod this car, I have to basically go through everything, and it's going to add up, roughly around $9k after all said and done on mods. Estimate a reliable 400-450fwhp, high 11, low 12 sec with good traction.

Anyhow, if I sell this Talon, and move into something a little more refined (Audi, etc), I'm just curious if I would get what I want out of her and within budget.  If money was no object, the B5 S4 would be in my targets, but I realize this caliber car is just not within reason for me dollar wise.  When I had the chance this past year on a 02 Stg3 S4, I passed, and landed the Tundra since I needed a more reliable truck and not car at the time.  Regardless, no S4's in my near future, which is really the direction I wanted to head.

So, after reading through the faq's, newbie guides and pages and pages of threads, I have some questions regarding the B5 A4 AEB nDBW AWD with a 5 speed, more than likely a '99.5 to get the best of both worlds, have more mod options, and keep the cost of the car down.

Here are the questions for those that made it this far, and I promise not to ask which chip is better:

1: Other than marginal engine rods from the factory, are there ANY other internal engine parts required (and or desired for reliability) to have a reliable 300-450hp @ the flywheel A4?

2: The guides mentioned the 5 speed can handle just about anything you throw at it, but doesn't mention anything else about driveline parts, so can I assume the axles/transfer case, etc are up to the challenge as well?

3: Also, when it comes to larger turbos, are there a lot of people realiably running the larger GT28RS, GT2871r, and GT3071r turbos?  I know the K04 swap is a cinch, but how much extra dough is coughed up just to get these larger ones to fit?  HP wise, looks like I would install something along the lines of the 28 or 3071r.
 
4: Other than a FPR, how come no one mentions anything about needing a larger fuel pump and or rail when going to a big turbo?

Thanks for the help and advice guys,

Ryan-

Note: The other cars I'm looking at are:

-2G AWD Talon/Eclipse + mods
-98 Volvo S70 5 speed + mods
-Mustang + Turbo possibly

My old gsx, thats what I would go with...
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/rhinop21/Eclipse2020.jpg

Rhino, that's a gorgeous GSX with very nice appointments.  Don't think I could do much better.
 
Are you going to upgrade your engine/turbo on your A4?

1: Other than marginal engine rods from the factory, are there ANY other internal engine parts required (and or desired for reliability) to have a reliable 300-450hp @ the flywheel A4? No, just the rods.  Depending on the turbo used, you can surpass 340whp on stock rods and still be fine.

2: The guides mentioned the 5 speed can handle just about anything you throw at it, but doesn't mention anything else about driveline parts, so can I assume the axles/transfer case, etc are up to the challenge as well? The axles should be fine unless you launch in higher revs with slicks and often.

3: Also, when it comes to larger turbos, are there a lot of people realiably running the larger GT28RS, GT2871r, and GT3071r turbos?  I know the K04 swap is a cinch, but how much extra dough is coughed up just to get these larger ones to fit?  HP wise, looks like I would install something along the lines of the 28 or 3071r. Reliablity shouldnt be a problem if you use good parts and a quality tune.  Kits for a gt30XX turbo should be around $4k for the hardware, turbo, injectors, and sw.  Then more for a clutch and intercooler upgrade.  A gt3071r would make 350awhp on pump and should reach 400awhp on race or w/m

4: Other than a FPR, how come no one mentions anything about needing a larger fuel pump and or rail when going to a big turbo?  You will need a fuel pump (either inline or both inline and drop in depending on power level).  Most cases you dont need to swap fpr's, it depends on the sw and injectors used.

cincy, great info!!  Thank you.
 
When you say "good parts" when it comes to a reliable turbo setup, what is classified as "not good parts"?  Or just give me a few examples so I totally understand.  I wasn't aware of much variation in options.
 
Also, at what point (hp level) are you guys throwing on the fuel pump(s)?  Again, looking for a reliable baseline.
 
Are most guys getting their cars dynoed, then a chip burned off that, or are a lot of them mail ordering their chips based on the mods they have?
 
I'm used to Ford, where you mod the car, dyno the car, then they burn you a chip based on the dyno pulls, so it's custom tailored to your A/F, etc.  Thus avoiding FMU's and having the chip digitally raise fuel pressure, etc.
 
Thanks again!

When you say "good parts" when it comes to a reliable turbo setup, what is classified as "not good parts"?  Or just give me a few examples so I totally understand.  I wasn't aware of much variation in options. Ebay turbos/manifolds.  Well, some of the cast atp clone manifolds are fine (not to mention 1/4 of the price), but the ss manifolds are a huge NO NO.

Also, at what point (hp level) are you guys throwing on the fuel pump(s)?  Again, looking for a reliable baseline. The stock one can handle to just about 300hp.  A walbro inline is the cheapest and easiest upgrade for the car.  Those should do 400whp fine.

Are most guys getting their cars dynoed, then a chip burned off that, or are a lot of them mail ordering their chips based on the mods they have?  Chipped for the mods.  The car is great at adapting to changes to an extent and a generic tune for a certain turbo and injectors will work and then can be optomised by sw called unisettings and running vagcom logs

I'm used to Ford, where you mod the car, dyno the car, then they burn you a chip based on the dyno pulls, so it's custom tailored to your A/F, etc.  Thus avoiding FMU's and having the chip digitally raise fuel pressure, etc.  refer to above

Again, great info and completely understand regarding the cheap parts thing now.
 
 

for a bunch of info, look at the newbie link on top of the forum.  It has tons of info on turbos, internals and so on

I already went through everything that looked relevant.  I'll go back through it and make sure I didn't miss anything.  Thank you.
 
Right now on the ATP Turbo site looking for specs, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ryboj

Rhino, that's a gorgeous GSX with very nice appointments.  Don't think I could do much better.

Are you going to upgrade your engine/turbo on your A4?

The rest of this year I will probably keep it low key, with just GIAC and other little bolt ons. In a year or so depending on how the car is running I will go with a Gt28RS with supporting mods. I am only 16 and school takes priority right now.
Ryan 

Rhino, at 16, with an Audi, heck, you're doing fine. :)
 
Cincy....  when reading newbie guide v 2.0, it mentions under the GT28RS area that ALL new mounts are needed.  Does this mean you need to buy different kinds of new mounts, or just new mounts period?  Is this to "refresh" the support areas or something?
 
Also, when it says new suspension under the same turbo, are you saying more sportier springs/struts or just new suspension in general?
 
Are there alternatives to the 3" VR6 MAF, or is this just the proven way?  Are people just picking these up new from the factory, or are they grabbing them from junk yards?  No wiring involved, simple bolt up?
 
Why is a custom intake needed on these GT style turbos?
 
Are there not any brandname 3" turbo inlet pipes out there?  Must be custom?
 
After looking more carefully at the spool characteristics of these turbos, the 2871R seems more appealing over the 3071R.  That 3071 just spools so late.....
 
Ok, off to do more research, thanks.
 
 

I really can't answer any of your questions, because I have a 12v 2.8 and have never tuned/built/modified a car ever in my life, but I want to pipe in and say that you have got to be the smartest n00b ever. You're actually reading the Newbie Guides and researching existing threads, and THEN asking in-depth, detailed questions for further clarification! I vote this thread should be made a sticky, title changed to "Newbies: Look Here For How To Go About Asking Questions".
 
Welcome to AudiForums, ryboj! And good luck to you!

Cincy....  when reading newbie guide v 2.0, it mentions under the GT28RS area that ALL new mounts are needed.  Does this mean you need to buy different kinds of new mounts, or just new mounts period?  Is this to "refresh" the support areas or something?  I didnt write the guide, just added some info.  But w/o going back and reading it, i do believe what your refering to is that it is suggested that the motor and tranny mount(s) be upgrades with the increase in power.  The stocks are so so and will hold the power, but stiffer mounts will keep the engine from rocking.

Also, when it says new suspension under the same turbo, are you saying more sportier springs/struts or just new suspension in general?  A sport tuned suspension suspension should be considered since the car will have about 2x the power.  So upgraded shocks/springs or coilovers should be upgraded to help control the car with the increase in power.  Its not required like above, just highly recommended

Are there alternatives to the 3" VR6 MAF, or is this just the proven way?  The stock housing (not the element) gets restrictive at a certain point and needs to be enlarged to handle the airflow needed.  Also the sw is written for them so you have to use them
 
Are people just picking these up new from the factory, or are they grabbing them from junk yards?  No wiring involved, simple bolt up?  There are used ones on the forums, sold online, or come in the kits used.  You just undo the clamps for the intake and the 2 security torx bits and then install your stock maf in the new housing and then back into the intake.

Why is a custom intake needed on these GT style turbos?  The stock turbo inlet pipe (tip) is for a 1.5" inlet and most turbos have atleast a 3" inlet.  Plus the manifold move the turbo to a differnt location.

Are there not any brandname 3" turbo inlet pipes out there?  Must be custom?  If you buy a kit, they come with the intake.  if you make your own 'kit', you need to make your own.

After looking more carefully at the spool characteristics of these turbos, the 2871R seems more appealing over the 3071R.  That 3071 just spools so late.....  The gt30 turbine wheel is slightly larger to flow way more air.  The differnce in spool is only about 300 or so rpms.  It basically comes down to how much power you really want.  If about 350awhp is you max, the 2871r will get you there.  If you want room to grow, the 3071r can do that. 

MrFlip: Thanks for welcoming me aboard, appreciate that.  So far, this place has been super friendly and even though some of these q's have been answered somewhere on this board at some point, people are still answering them, so I'm grateful for that.  Being that you've never modded a car, don't do it.  It's EXTREMELY addictive I tell you!

Cinch, once again, thanks for putting that together for me.  All of it made perfect sense.

Looks like I need to discover more about what turbo kits that are available out there, especially the GT style ones that are in my HP goal range.  The ATP ones look promising, but the tuning software, the Mika stuff, not sure on how good their sw is compared to the likes of GIAC, etc.

Right now, checking out the below, but it's hard to navigate actual kit pricing.

http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/release041205.htm

You want the longitude hardware kit with a real gt turbo.  Avoid mika tuning at all cost.  You really want to go with tapp for the tune and genisis for the injectors.

Got it.  Ill start researching more since I'm not familiar with those brands whatsoever, thanks!

Holy crap! Welcome ryboj, you do have to be the smartest noob ever if you can catch on that fast. The learing curve around here is.....................well lets just say.....................slow.

*insert lame joke hear*

auditech: Thanks for welcoming me on man.  I do hope after extensive snooping around on here and a few posts, it makes sense to get one of these.  If not, at least I'll know a lot more about these sweet cars!

Don't worry, you might catch me asking a real noob question here sooner or later, haha.

cinch: Joke has been inserted!

I think there are a few good Euro tuners here in San Diego by the way, to help me out, so that's reassuring.

Ok, so it looks like I'll need:

1: Longitude BT hardware kit
2: Garrett BT 2871R or 3071R
3: Chris Tapp SW and Genisis injects + possibly dyno time
4: Inline Fuel Pump
5: 3" Turbo Inlet/Intake
6: VR6 MAF housing
7: ATP or the alike Exhaust Mani

It's a little over $4500 for the above parts

8: Stage 4/5 clutch $700-800
9: New stronger mounts everywhere ($ not sure)
10: Improved suspension; braking if money is left  ($2k)
11: Downpipe with Cat ($300-400)
12: Exhaust, 2.75 or 3" ($500-800)
13: Possibly forged rods (scat or better) ($350-500)
14: If desired, EGT/boost/AF LED display readout ($500)
15: FMIC ($700-900)

Looks like 9-10k+ for mods + car.  It's going to go beyond my expected budget.  I'll have to go back through this and see what can be shaved out, if anything.  This would be the same cost as a used/modded Stage 2 or 3 B5 S4.  Ouch.

What do well built (Stage III and above) and CLEAN (& no rust) '98-00 A4's go for these days?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ryboj

  This would be the same cost as a used/modded Stage 2 or 3 B5 S4.  Ouch.

 
Now you are talking! b5 s4!  you can buy a nicely tuned one for a very reasonable price im sure... ive seen some unmodded 01's asking $15-16k...

Papa: I know I know, it kills me.  Thing is, I just didn't want to have that much vested into a car, because I know once I have a stock S4, I'm going to want more, it's the nature of it!  And wating more is going to cost a bundle!  I've seen some for high teens with a few mods, and very low 20's all decked out and low miles/clean.  It's going to hurt no matter which way I look at it.
 
Back to the drawing board for now.

1: Longitude BT hardware kit
2: Garrett BT 2871R or 3071R
3: Chris Tapp SW and Genisis injects + possibly dyno time
4: Inline Fuel Pump
5: 3" Turbo Inlet/Intake
6: VR6 MAF housing
7: ATP or the alike Exhaust Mani Thats part of the HW kit.  So if you added in $400, you can take that out.

It's a little over $4500 for the above parts

7: Stage 4/5 clutch $700-800
8: New stronger mounts everywhere ($ not sure) 034motorsports.com  Think they are around $60-75
8: Improved suspension; braking if money is left  ($2k)
9: Downpipe with Cat ($300-400) Again, part of the kit.  Just add in a cat for $100 of have the stock one made to fit.  The stock one works great since it can be inlarged to 3" and flows extremely well.
10: Exhaust, 2.75 or 3" ($500-800) Both are big enough, but a custom Borla/Magnaflow system is less than $400
11: Possibly forged rods (scat or better) ($350-500) If you are going with a 01+, you need Integrated Engineering 19mm wrist pin rods.  They are ~$320 from 20squared.com and qedpower.com
12: If desired, EGT/boost/AF LED display readout ($500)
13: FMIC ($700-900) Go to vwvortex.com and search INA fmic kit.  They are top notch

Looks like 9-10k+ for mods + car.  It's going to go beyond my expected budget.  I'll have to go back through this and see what can be shaved out, if anything.  This would be the same cost as a used/modded Stage 2 or 3 B5 S4.  Ouch.

What do well built and CLEAN (& no rust) '98-00 A4's go for these days? You want a 97-99.5 AEB A4.  They should be $8-11k depending on milage, condition, and config.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cincyTT

7: ATP or the alike Exhaust Mani Thats part of the HW kit.  So if you added in $400, you can take that out.  -That wa$ not added in, but thanks for clarifying!

It's a little over $4500 for the above parts

8: New stronger mounts everywhere ($ not sure) 034motorsports.com  Think they are around $60-75  -------
9: Downpipe with Cat ($300-400) Again, part of the kit.  Just add in a cat for $100 of have the stock one made to fit.  The stock one works great since it can be inlarged to 3" and flows extremely well.  Great info!
10: Exhaust, 2.75 or 3" ($500-800) Both are big enough, but a custom Borla/Magnaflow system is less than $400  ---- I know you can take this route on other cars/trucks, but wasn't sure if they would look as nice as a well designed system.  Got it.
11: Possibly forged rods (scat or better) ($350-500) If you are going with a 01+, you need Integrated Engineering 19mm wrist pin rods.  They are ~$320 from 20squared.com and qedpower.com  ----Cool, saw some on the qedpower earlier.  The 00 on up I would defintiely do stronger rods.

13: FMIC ($700-900) Go to vwvortex.com and search INA fmic kit.  They are top notch---Great, thanks for the recommendation!  Do they customize it to fit a Garrett BT? No more piping is needed?


What do well built and CLEAN (& no rust) '98-00 A4's go for these days? You want a 97-99.5 AEB A4.  They should be $8-11k depending on milage, condition, and config.  --Really? That's affordable compared to other options.  So, I can assume these are turn key stage 3 and above A4's? So, for $12k, I could have a decked out/clean/low miles '99.5 A4?  Interesting. 
 
After your edits, looks like a $700 savings or so. I'm still in the 9k range for parts.

 
I guess I need to see whatelse can be had for $12k....something fast, something reliable, and something appealing to the eyes.  No turbo Pintos for me please. :)

The stock rods can hold a 2871r on pump (22-23psi) with a good tune and proper boost control.  Anything more pushes the rods to far.  Thats for all 1.8t's not certain models.
 
The INA kit is a little more costly, but it uses a extremely nice garrett core that will cool both those turbos extremely well.  It is a complete bolt on and may only need some slight modding to fit where the turbo is located since their are differnt turbo manifold.
 
For a 8-10 year old car, its going to be hard to find one that has low miles (for me thats less than 50k).  But for those years, they should be in excellent shape and have 80-100k miles.  If you plan on upgrading rods, miles dont really matter since you can rering and hone the cylinders to regain all the compression if needed.  Not sure where your getting a stg3 car from
 
The fastest and cheepest cars will be a early 90's civic/crx.  You should be able to put 12k in that including the car and have something that is insanly fast, turbo or NA.