apr and a/f ratios...no newbies please

first off check my sig for the mod list on my car.  I'm very dissapointed with the numbers this car posted on the dyno. It went 168.8 hp and 207.9 tq!  What a joke.  Now here's the problem.  The wideband showed a reading of 13.7 @ max hp @ 17.2 psi.  I thought the car was gonna blow up it was soooooo lean. It pulled timing really bad after i heard the ping. it was that bad.  the a/f ratio should be in the 10.5 range right?? I'm on the apr 93 octane program.  I would think that the program should have the correct fuel curves, but apparently not.  Should I have it reflashed? Or should I first contact APR? I don't know what to do, but I'm pissed.  Has anyone else had this problem or seen it before? Is there any tuning techs out there that have any advice for me?  I am a certified tech so I do know quite a bit, but this is just got me puzzled.  Thanks in advance!!

13.7 is rich
 
14.7 : 1 is stociometric (spelling?) for where gasoline burns the most efficient.
 
if it was lean it would be something like 16 ot 17:1...
 
which is is prolly due to the FC your using. you need to be consent w/ the fact its a 1.8... your not going to put up big numbers w/o doing some serious work

i guess i'm not all that concerned about the hp. i know i'm not gonna put up huge numbers without huge work but i expected a little better than 169 hp.  I was thinkin it should be more in the range of 240 hp and 260 tq qith the mods. the car is flywheel rated at 170. I mean come on i should be doin better than stock rating at the wheels.  I'm more concerned about the car running properly. I also periodically get a chck code for o2 sensor 2 inner resistance to large, but it all checks out within specs according to alldata. could this be a problem too? i know the ecu is flashed for the test pipe as part of the apr program so should it even monitor that sensor? i also know that sensor 1 is primary for a/f monitoring, and sensor 2 is more or less for just monitoring converter efficiency. am i right or way off? the car is stored for the winter right now, but i wanna pull it out and get it fixed before the salt goes away. I'm not trying to contridict what your saying, i just want it fixed. thanks for the help man. Much appreciated.

I don't see a problem w/ your set up.
 
most cars, especially turbos w/ a stock setup tend to lean out as they max out. which can end up being dangerous for the car. thats why people working to increase power always get an A/F meter so they can monitor it. Now if it spikes slightly rich at wide open throttle its not really a bad thing and i hardly doubt its the problem your having bringing the numbers up. if you were running rich all the time, then i could see how it could effect performance.
 
i used to run imports on dynos... kids w/ 2000.00 worth of intakes and exhausts actually loose HP over stock.
 
performance is more complicated than people think. alot of formulas and measuring is required, then researching of parts and their actual ratings over their advertised ones.

i just grabbed my dyno sheet and your right it is a fairly smooth curve startin at about 15.0:1 and gradually riching to like 12.5:1 at 5800 rpm.  that's right! the shop that dynoed it said it should be going the other way. i was thinking it was backwards form what it is. sorry. anyway what do you make of the check code for the o2 sensor? thanks for all your help. i'm feeling much better about it now! i guess its time for cams, pistons, and more boost. lol!!

POST YOUR DYNO SHEET!

The numbers really do not mean all that much, the curve is much more important.

Anyway, on a turbo car, towards redline, you should be in the 12's or lower. This will help with detonations & heat, plus it's much safer.
If your car is not in the proper tune, it will run much lower numbers, I would ask the dyno what a stock car does.

Did you check for any stored codes? Off the top of my head......
Dirty MAF
bad CTS
EGT & or O2.
You might also have a leak on the line for the FPR, or just a failing FPR, but they usually run rich when failing.

ok here is the dyno sheet. let me know what you think. thanks guys!!


Thumbnail Image

I don't really see a problem, the curve is smooth, the boost is dropping off at around 5k (which is normal on a K03). I think you just have a lot of drivetrain loss, or the dyno might have been wacked out maybe.

sweet! thanks for the help everyone. i guess if i want more power it means more $$. That's alright. the car's got 87k on it now. I'm doin the timing belt/water pump this weekend. I may just go a little farther and pull the head get that worked over a bit, maybe a set of cams, and definitely a ko4! i need more power than this. The car moves pretty good just not what i'm used to, and i expected more out of it for what's done!

Forget the K04, it only provides about a 5 horsepower increase accroding to Borg Warner (the maker of the turbo) The K04 has a larger compressor wheel which makes it able to hold boost longer than a K03 but thats about it.
If you wan't power you need to step up to an eliminator series turbo, or go BT and change the manifold. Check out www.atpturbo.com before ever thinking about a K04, its a waste of money IMO.

cool i'll look into it thanks for the info.

Agreed on all of this - the curve looks nice and smooth, and the A/F ratios don't look abnormal - I think what has happened is you're simply hitting the ceiling of what the K03 can do.  It's tiny and it won't take all that much to max it out. 

What I've been curious about with these OEM turbos is, does anyone have a compressor map for one?  I'm curious about when it goes into surge and what boost ranges are most effective.  I see on here there are plenty of people running them upwards of 18psi, and with a turbo that small I have to wonder whether you're getting more bark than bite at those boost levels. 

In any event, boostedB6, AudiTech79 is right - it's time for a bigger turbo.  Get that, whether it's something like a GT28RS or something even bigger, and your car is going to come alive in a big way.  You have almost all the supporting mods for something like that (I only think you'd do well to add bigger injectors with the appropriate reflash, and you may want to read your OEM clutch its last rites as well).  Throw a significantly larger turbo in there and hang on tight.

i think i'm gonna order the gtrs, with the 3" inlet pipe from atp.  some 550cc injectors and a new computer program and leave it at that. hopefully i'll get what i'm lookin for outta this thing. I got a 90 eagle talon tsi awd with 3" turbo back exhaust, test pipe, 550cc, safc, 2g maf, 2g injen intake, K&N, msd, on a stock turbo and intercooler @ 18 psi all for about $2000. that includes the price of the car and it smokes my audi. I got about $25k into the audi with the car.  that's just dissapointing, but i love the audi. It's by far my favorite car to date and i've had everything from chevy v8's fully built to honda civics on nos, but nothing compares to the luxury of the audi i just need MORE POWER. 

Well if you don't mind getting in trouble with emmissions in your state go with the full frame GTRS instead of the eliminator, you'll get a ton more power and a much better power and torque curve on the dyno. Eliminator turbos tend to crack the stock manifolds anyway. You can get a GT28RS turbo kit for about $2,500 shipped, then you just need a good tune: REVO, APR, MTM, GIAC ect. Stay away from the MIKA tuning kit that ATP sells, it just plain sucks.
Another tip im gonna give you is do not change the size of the MAF sensor un-less the programmer tells you to, most tunes requires different size injectors though.
 

emmisions is not a problem here. I have never had to do emmisions and I never will. I register all my cars in Northern Wisconsin by my Dad. There's nothing but trees up there so they don't have any emmisions problems.  I only care about the best performance for the car. i'll look into some other options then before i make a decision. thanks for the info.