super turbo?

is there such a thing as super and turbo charged cars

if so, how does it work, wouldnt too much air come in, and not enuff fuel?

wat company makes kits?

last, will it work on an audi

thanks in advance

audis have engines that come with turbos already
and theres not a lot of supercharged cars the only one i can think of are the Mbenz wit there 5.5 liter supercharged

well u can supercharge alotta cars, any american car can be supercharged, some acuras ( the higher end ones) lots more...

but which car is capable of using both systems?

A4 2.8 with the PES kit and no I do not think you can do both

Hate to shoot you down, CLC, but I beg to differ.

Technically, it wouldn't be impossible to do. Just impractical. I mean, a turbo spins off of the exhaust gasses, pressurizing an intake plenum and forcing more air into the manifold. (this is just a basic explaination, so NO sharpshooting allowed, unless I got something COMPLETELY rong) More air means more oz avail for combustion. A supercharger is belt-drived, and spins at a percentage (generally above) of engine speed, also pressurizing a plenum and forcing more air into the manifold. Agian, more oz, better burn in the combustion chamber.

You'd have to have everything bolted together with, like, SUPER bolts, or something. And, with today's modern engines, the computational power needed to manage the whole thing would be prohibitively expensive, on a street car.

I found a forum on supercharging vs. turbocharging:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/f1199-forced_induction.html
You'll find more info than you EVER wanted on Turbo's and Superchargers.

And one specifically about turbo AND supercharging on the same engine:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/t258763-supercharged_and_turbocharged_engine.html

Hope this helps...

yea i saw it done on a 5.0 stang in a mag when i was like 16, oh yea the mag was 5.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: PandaXpress

audis have engines that come with turbos already
and theres not a lot of supercharged cars the only one i can think of are the Mbenz wit there 5.5 liter supercharged

M-B has pretty much homogenized their engine and drivetrain lines. You can pretty much order a Kompressor for just about every engine in any given model, same for their 4Matic drivetrain. Don't know if you can order BOTH on all vehicles, though. Anyone care to show me up on this?

thanks for the posts, youve all been very helpful

i guess its safe to say yes it is possible, but can ur engine handle the power?

RS wut car do u have

You can use a supercharger (centrifugal) to produce a low amount of boost (2-3 psi) and run it directly into the turbo to help with spool up. Never seen it done but it works as a theory.

in the mix of getting an a6 2.7tt , gotta wait for some insurance **** to clear up. wanted s4, but realisticly its too small and is too much on insurance

when using a supercharger on a turbocharger kit a roots blower is usually used. i know u guys arent down with rice but these are the people that have built these kits to perfection. i know the mini cooper offers one but its puttin a turbo on its already supercharged engine which is a roots blower. there are a few kits and its really only for show as you cant gain as much power as you can get from a single but its the power curve thats attractive on this kit.

Dude, explain how a roots would help the turbocharger? For example, lets say that this roots/screw blower is making 12 psi. Now how would that help if your turbo is puchin more than 12psi? Eventually the turbo would out flow the supercharger causing it to spin faster than the pulley would allow. Now if you used a centrifugal supercharger (preferably electric so you can turn it on and off and regulate boost from the cockpit) you could, instead of routing the superchared air into the intake, could route the supercharged air into the turbo charger. This would require 2 BOV's. And yes, they HAVE to be BOV's. If you had 2 DV's where would they recirculate the air too? So in theory this could be done. I hope one day I am able to experiment with this idea.

lol an electric supercharger...classic. what did u buy it from ebay or one that your gonna need 5 car batteries in your trunk to supply the power to run it. go do some research. let us know how ur theorys work out some day. if u really want me to show u i will. yes i know what ur think a centrifigual is parisitic and creates less heat so its more efficient but what it is is that u use a small turbo to feed into a supercharger not a supercharger into a turbo. thats what in-line turbos are for. the only real application i could see this working on is a semi or a tractor bc u in the first place would need a hudge turbo in order to have a paxton blowing into it and 5 psi isnt just 5 psi.

I dont see how a turbo would help a supercharger by feeding into it. I mean a supercharger is driven by a pulley, putting more air into it will not make it spool any faster. Where as low boost from an electric supercharger would help eliminate spool almost fully.

BTW electric superchargers are used commercially. For example, my companies electric "bobcat" has an electronic supercharger.

just research it...also how much juice does it take to push what kind of psi?

Depends on the supercharger.

And I usually don't open my mouth without at least knowing something about the subject.

i refer back to AWDaholic orignal post, with the 2 links, the 2nd link says why u need a roots blower

Still doesnt make sense to use a roots.

Hey Tex...

quote:

ORIGINAL: near the top of the thread, from the link I posted, above

duplox
This has been done and it fairly common among drag cars. Generally you put the turbos before the supercharger. You can't Y them together, the pressure the supercharger creates will just leave out the turbo, and since its flowing backwards through the compressor would pretty effectively stall the turbo out so it will never make boost. I've only seen it done on V8s, and I don't know what types of superchargers are available for 4cyl engines. What is done on the v8 drag motors is they'll put a roots blower on top:
http://www.uncommonengineering.com/red%20flathead%2001.gif
The roots blower is the big ribbed box with the thick belt driving it on top of the motor. The turbo(s) feed into the top of this, where the carbs are on that motor. The reason this works so well is the roots blower is a positive displacement supercharger, meaning for 1 turn it always pushes the same ammount of air. So before the turbos are spooled, it sucks air through the turbos, compresses it, and feeds it to the motor. The increase in exhaust will quickly spool the turbos, which then increase the pressure between them and the supercharger. The supercharger then takes in a big gulp of the pressurized air, compresses it further, and feeds it to the motor. So if you're running a blower that gives you a 2:1 pressure ratio without the turbos(1 bar boost), and turbos that give you a 3:1 ratio(2 bars boost), you'll have a combination that'll potentially produce 5 bars of boost, or around 70psi. Not too shabby... you can probably do something similar on the street, but in order to gain any low end, you need to use a positive displacement supercharger, which basically means either a roots type or a screw type(aka whipple, lysholm type). The problem now becomes you may be producing too much pressure since its a sequential system. If set the supercharger up to run 6psi(1.4:1 pressure ratio) and wastegate your turbo at 6psi, you'll end up with a total pressure of around 14psi.

Duplox's explaination is also fairly basic, ableit more in-depth than my earlier comments. Now... I wonder if I can do something like this to my riding mower... Hmmm...

So, anyway, it sounds like you'd basically be over-pressurizing the blower. Kinda like jamming more people into a consistantly spinning revolving door than can comfortably fit. As long as the door frame holds, and the glass doesn't bust, and as long as you keep turbo-ing people into one side they'll keep spewing out the other side. This all assumes that the blower, or revolving door, in this case, will push (pressurize) a certain amount of people through for a given spin rate (PSI=PEOPLE per SQUARE INCH). The blowers' PSI will remain a constant percentage for any given spin rate, right? Using a turbo to crush more people into the volumn within the vee of the doors (imaging how cool THAT would look, BTW) will similarly give you more people (PSI, remember) out the other side.

Oh, OK. So is there a seperate inlet for the turbocharged air? I still dont understand how you would make 14 psi of boost if your only pushing 7 from each power source other than the air is entering the manifold at 2 seperate inlets. My idea was to have the supercharger run really low boost and feed it directly into the turbo charger.

So, do you want to use the supercharger to "Pre" spin the turbo? Spool them up at a lower rpm? Or, are you looking at the supercharger as the "air-pump" to run the turbo autonomously?

If the former, I think (anybody feel free to jump in with any wild-a$$'d comments to the contrary) that you’re looking at at situation where you’ll only get a certain amount of pressure form the super, since it’s belt driven, or, worst-case, if you Y-pipe them, and the turbo spins up and is generating full boost it will create back pressure within the super, which, by your definition is running at a lower boost. This back pressure will most likely create additional parasitic drag on the now useless super, robbing you of precious HP, unnecessarily.

If the latter, again, you'll have unnecessary parasitic drag from the super, since the turbo would only “see” whatever pressure the super pushes, and would spin as well, or better, off of the "free" exhaust pressure.

In the article the turbo is used to "over-pressure" the super. You get bottom end from the super, anyway, prior to the turbo spooling up, AND, additional PSI (people per square inch-heh heh) from the turbo once the exhaust puts a proper spin on the turbo impellers. The issue of parasitic drag is offset by the power the supercharger adds, instantaneously.

I think you’re still not quite understanding the principles involved. Let’s revisit the example in my most recent post:
Say you’ve got a normal flow of people through a revolving door (since a revolving door works most like a supercharger it seems the best way to help you visualize what’s happening). The revolving door is our supercharger, running at a constant RPM based on engine speed. Our “normal” flow would be one person per “V” in the rotating door, for iinstance. From there our people are ingested into the manifold, then into and out of our combustion chamber, then spit out the exhaust.

Running the turbo into the super (our revolving door) will allow us to squeeze two, or even three people per “V” in the revolving part of our door, which is still spinning at whatever speed it would without the help of the turbo. Being belt driven, as opposed to exhaust driven, it will always only ever spin at a constant percentage of engine speed. The turbo simply stuffs more people into each “V” each revolution, the into the manifold, and so on. Which is where we’ll get our 14PSI from two 7PSI devices.

I think if you were to allow yourself to look at it from a perspective of which provides the best volumetric efficiency you'll understand why a turbo into a super makes better sense. Not that you couldn't do it the other way around, but, would it make the best business case? The business of putting the most power to the pavement, that is. Running the super into the turbo cheats you out of the benefits of the supercharger, while still penalizing you with parasitic drag (and, nobody likes parasites, RIGHT people?). Doing it the other way around takes advantage of each devices strengths, without rendering either one a spectator to the process.

I shud be a teecher... I rilly, rilly shud.

someone do it..or this is all pointless discussion.....i say..we all donate a certain amount of money to a fund...and then do it on a car...

thanks for better explaining it to him AW

thanks alot AWD, seems you know a great deal about this topic, i got in an arguement with my friend sayin it was not possible. but after realizing superchargers run on belts, i thought there had to be a way

thanks again

keep the posts coming!