What are my (lemon) options?

Hi gang,
(see this thread http://www.audiforums.com/m_639943/tm.htm for background)

So I've brought my A3 w/ 1500 miles into service again.  1st time was cracked cylinder head.  Didn't start first time in the mornings.  I got it back on Wednesday, and Thursday started fine in the morning.  Friday morning: same issue.  didn't start on the first try.  Saturday morning (today) - same thing.  Checked the coolant overflow reservoir and it was a bit below the level it was when I got it back on Wed.  I also smelled the coolant and it has a gasoline smell in it.  I compared with the loaner I just got and the loaner smells like regular coolant, not like gasoline.

I explained my concerns to the service gentleman, and he totally understood where I was coming from.  I said:
1. If there's gas in the coolant, what's the long term effects? (service guy: "That's not good")
2. What if I ever want to sell this car?  the buyer is going to check the service records, and run like heck. (service guy: "I totally understand")
3. I've got coolant in my engine cylinders and most likely the oil too.  That can't be good.  Is it rusting inside the cylinder when it sits overnight?  The block is cast iron isn't it?  Coolant is water based isn't it?  There goes my rings and that perfect seal in the cylinder.
4. Does Audi want me driving a car with potential long term issues like this?  Is that good for their name, and my safety?
5. I bought a precision engineered high performance German engineered vehicle.  That's not what I got.

At what point can I request a new vehicle? 
What would you do?
Have any of you gotten a lemon?

Very curious,
- J

There is usually a substantial burden to meet before you can legally begin trying for a new car.  A lot of it depends on what state you are in.  Wikipedia has the government links for some states:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law.  My understanding is that in most cases it has to be the same problem occurring multiple times.  So if your cylinder head was cracked, repaired, cracked again, and was repaired again - you might be at the start of building a case.
 
You don't have a lot of choice other than going back to the dealer again.  Are you in a metro area with more than one dealer within a reasonable distance?  Take it to a different one if you are not happy with the message\service you are getting from your dealer.  If the dealer isn't able to fix it again, I would go to an independent Audi repair specialist and pay the nominal charge for them to tell you exactly what the issue is.  Then go into the dealer telling them the problem and request for them to repair it.  

I had an issue with an '89 Jetta I owned that had several problems - including a cracked head.  My dealer "couldn't find" any issues to repair.  Meanwhile I thought the car was barely drivable and impossible to start in the NJ winter.  I drove it off the VW lot, went across the street to the Goodyear shop, and paid them $25 to tell me everything that was wrong.  They did, I drove back across the street 30 minutes later with a laundry list of issues, and Volkswagen made all of the repairs under waranty for me.  In my case I think the technician looking at my car that day had no idea what he was doing. 
 
If you're in the Atlanta metro area, I have been to the new Gwinnett Audi dealership and they were very customer focussed. 

J,

I just completed a Lemon-Law return (not with my A3) on my wife's Cadillac SRX.  As 'E' said, it very much depends on the state you are in-- they all have different variations of the law.  I'm in California, which is one of the most consumer-oriented.  Even after meeting the required 4 service returns for the same problem, GM would not buy the car back, I was still not convinced they had resolved the issue.  I contacted a Lemon-Law attorney, and they were very successful.  I've returned the car and in accordance with California law at a very good deal, with zero attorney fees (In California, the car maker has to pay your attorney fees).  Not only did I never enter a court, I never even met my lawyer face-to-face.  I didn't read your history, but my suggestion is to do your homework, and keep the pressure up.  Once you've met the requirement in your state, if Audi isn't working with you, find a lawyer.  Don't depend on the dealer...they have no power.  You need to contact Audi directly.  Check the back of your owner's manual and make an official (mailed) complaint.  Good luck.

Dilzman

Thank you both for your replies.  I will do my homework and research the law here in Rhode Island.  I'll wait to see what they find on Monday and hope for the best.  If they end up fixing the problem, do you think it would be rude for me to ask for an extended warranty from Audi (100k) and/or free AudiCare service for my trouble and the obvious depreciation factor.

Thanks again, I'll keep you all posted.

- J

Joseppe,

I'm in RI too and although I have never lemon-lawed a car a close friend of mine has lemond 2. An Oldsmobile about 10 years ago and a Honda van last year. It was not difficult and he didn't get a laywer involved. Just keep tight records of everything. When he was trying to get the Honda repaired they did offer him an extended warranty but the problem continued and he ended up with a new one.

Are you working with Inskip? if so I'm interested to here how this goes.

Good luck.

Hi Threshold,
Thanks for the info.  Yes, I'm working with Inskip.  They seem very professional and understand my concerns completely.  I trust them so far and I'm not "freaking out" just yet.  I just want to get what I paid for, not some frankenstein car with tons of repairs. 
I really like the car, so I hope it all works out.  I know every manufacturer isn't perfect and they occasionally make bad ones, so I understand and I'm pretty patient.
When your friend got the new van, did it cost him anything?  Same model/year/options/color/etc?
I have an '07, and I doubt they'll be able to find an '07 w/ the same color and options.  I hope I don't get screwed (if they give me a new one) and have to pay even more money for an '08.

Do you think it would make sense for them to give me a new one *before* it gets "lemon" status?  For example: I "trade it in" for a new one at an even swap, and they take mine and fix it right, then use it as a loaner or something.  That way the law doesn't become involved and the carfax doesn't show it's a lemon.  When the sell it CPO, slap a 100k warranty on it and everyone's happy. 
Should I suggest it?

Thanks,
- J

quote:

ORIGINAL: threshold

Joseppe,

I'm in RI too and although I have never lemon-lawed a car a close friend of mine has lemond 2. An Oldsmobile about 10 years ago and a Honda van last year. It was not difficult and he didn't get a laywer involved. Just keep tight records of everything. When he was trying to get the Honda repaired they did offer him an extended warranty but the problem continued and he ended up with a new one.

Are you working with Inskip? if so I'm interested to here how this goes.

Good luck.

My friend is on vacation in Canada this week but I'll shoot him an email to see if I can get some details. He ended up with a newer Honda van (lemoned a 96 and now has a 97 if I remember) but I don't know how the transaction worked.

I would think if it costs you a bit to get out of your problematic A3 and into a new, working great A3 it will be well woth it.

Josepee - here is the info my friend who has lemoned 2 cars sent me:

----------------------------------------
Here is the RI link to Lemon Law… you have to claim it under the law for the state in which you purchased.  So even though I live in RI, I had to send a letter to Honda North America claiming under the Mass Lemon Law (Bought at Herb Chambers in Seekonk MA)

This is part is new to me:

http://www.dmv.org/ri-rhode-island/automotive-law/lemon-law.php#Lemon_Law_Qualifications_for_New_and_Leased_Vehicles
http://www.dmv.org/ma-massachusetts/automotive-law/lemon-law.php#New_and_Leased_Vehicles

What I did:

- Know the lemon law
- Collect your receipts and document time lost from car
- Write a letter directly to the manufacturer (documents attached) and cite lemon law
 
My loss of time and inconvenience was my bartering for the replacement vehicle for a net cost of ZERO… don’t sign a thing unless there is a big fat zero in the “You pay amount”.  Herb Chambers wanted a check for the outstanding amount to which a laughed at the finance manager – I told him I ain’t paying anything and not signing anything that doesn’t state I’m paying anything other than ZERO.  The arbitrator was the one that the dealer is getting the check from, not you.  The dealer just wanted it then and there and I was not having that BS… you dealers inconvenienced me, now you wait for the check.  I plan on driving out today with my new vehicle.

This part of the RI law is new to me… I didn’t go throught the RI AG, I went directly to the Manufacturer.  Funny thing it doesn’t list the Manufacturer’s list on the RI Lemon Law page any more.  AG wants their friggin $20 –more red tape to delay.  Here’s the list http://www.consumeraction.gov/carman.shtml
>> NEW TO ME
How to Proceed if You Own a New or Leased Vehicle
You must complete a complaint form with Rhode Island's Attorney General and pay a $20 filing fee. The Attorney General will then notify the manufacturer or dealer and then hand your case over to the Motor Vehicle Arbitration Board. The Board will gather and study all information relevant to your case before issuing a verdict.

If the verdict falls in your favor, the manufacturer or dealer who sold you your lemon will then have 30 days to comply to the terms decided by the Board. Uually, this means you'll either receive a full refund or an identical or similar replacement vehicle.

----------------Letter Template---------------------------------
<YOUR NAME>
<ADDRESS>
<PHONE> <DATE> <DEALER HQ (not your local dealer)>
<DEALER ADDRESS>

Dear Sir or Madam: I believe that my car is a "lemon" under the Massachusetts Lemon Law (Massachusetts General Laws; c. 90 Sec. 7N1/2). I am hereby making a written demand for relief under the Lemon Law and the Massachusetts Consumer Protection Act (Massachusetts General Laws, c. 93A, Sec.9). I purchased a 2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L on <DATE> from <DEALER> in <CITY/STATE>. The vehicle identification number or VIN number is <VIN>. Since I bought the vehicle, I have had to return it to the dealership a total of 4 times. My vehicle has been out of service for repairs for a total of 10 business days. My vehicle has been in Herb Chambers Honda for repairs on the following dates for repair of the following defects:
(Date in/out)                 (List problems complained of) 31 May /  31 May            Creaking driver side slider door / rattling driver window
10 July  /  10 July      Oil leak, replaced oil pan gasket
12 July  /  13 July      Oil leak, replaced oil pan (claimed micro fracture in the pan)
15 July /   20 July      Oil leak, replaced rear main seal and cover to the transmission
I am having the following problems with my vehicle at this time:
Persistent oil leak.  We purchased Honda for reliability and peace of mind and solely for the arrival of our baby.   The purchase of a Honda and primary reason in doing so was for the safety and reliability for our newborn child.  The Honda name is known for it’s reliability and dependability and to this point that is hardly the case.  Each time the Odyssey is brought in for service I have to unload all our baby’s things in the van (car seat, stroller, diaper bags, toys, CDs etc) and load them into a rental and vice versa when the van is ready for pickup.   The unloading and loading, the oil stains on our cement driveway and stress from worrying; to say an inconvenience is a gross understatement.
These remaining defects substantially impair the use, market value or safety of my vehicle. I am hereby allowing you one final repair opportunity. If these repairs are not completed within seven business days of receipt of this letter, I am entitled to a replacement vehicle acceptable to me or a refund calculated in accordance with the Lemon Law.
Failure to comply with the Lemon Law is a violation of Massachusetts General Laws, c. 93A, and you may be subject to double or treble damages as well as attorney’s fees and court costs if this matter is taken to court. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Sincerely,   <NAME>

Threshold,
Wow, excellent information!  I will certainly use it if I have to.  Thank you so much for posting such a lengthy and detailed description of what to do. 

- J

They saw the cold start problem today, but claim that there are no leaks in the cooling system (into the cylinders)  from pressure testing it.  Audi techline told them to go ahead and replace all four fuel injectors... which will be here on Wed or Thurs.  Driving an A4 2.0T and not loving it as much as the A3.  No way near as fun to drive.  :-(

- J

Got my car back yesterday. They replaced all 4 fuel injectors. Started ok this morning.
That's the update. I'll write more if it breaks again.

- J

Thanks for the update. I hope this fixes it for you.

Another update:

I got the car home the other night and was looking around the engine compartment and noticed that there was a clip on one of the 3 hoses on the left side of the engine that was not secured back the way it was (the one w/ the green line).  So I got some pliers and moved it back into place.  Then I kept looking and saw a bigger hose on the rear of the engine that was missing a clamp.  :-(   So I brought it in today and they confirmed that yes, it was missing and they put it back.  It was a breather(?) hose for the crank case.
SO, I get home this time and looked under the hood just to make sure, and yes, the clip was there, but now MY ENGINE COVER WIGGLES!  If I lift up on the right side, it moves up/down about maybe 1/2 cm.  argh!  I don't remember it doing that before.  it was pretty secure on there.
Now I'm going to have to bring it back AGAIN and have them tighten it up...  what the frig!?
I've seen the inside of that service department more times in 1600 miles than most of you will see in 50,000.

I have to call somebody at Audi.

thanks for listening...
-J

That sucks. I was impressed with how clean and neat the service bays were when I got the tour but I don't think I want to become that familiar with them...

I see from your profile you are in the NK area - do you drive a white A3? I'm shooting down RT4 most Tues. mornings around 8:30 for work and just about every week I see a white A3 heading west. I don't see many A3's around RI so I figured I would ask.

Hi Threshold,

The service bays are beautiful!  But after seeing them so much, it gets old... :-)

Yes, I drive a white A3 w/ open sky!  I drive north on RT4 every morning somewhere between 7:45 and 8:15 or so.  What are you driving?  I don't see many A3's either.  Lucky if I see one or two per week.
Funny story:  there's a friend of my wife who lives about 1/2 mile from me w/ another white a3 w/ open sky.  Different rims and she's got cloth, I have black leather.

See you on the road!
- J

I have a black A3 premium, black leather, open sky. I'm heading to Saunderstown for a meeting Wed. morning and if I see a white A3 I'll hit my high beams.

Cool, I'll look for you!  Unless it's in the shop again - then look for a green Ford Ranger... 

Hi Threshold,
Nice photos on your website btw!  Do you use digital or film for the long exposures?  I dabble in some amateur photography a bit when I get a chance.
Also, did you buy your A3 at Inskip?

-J

Personal email sent.