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  #1  
Old 02-12-2010, 01:50 PM
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Default Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?

The patient: 2000 Audi A6 Quattro 4.2l v8 non turbo, 120K miles

Mine has a chain rattle type sound. But only when I tap the gas (press and release pedal quickly).b The RPM's go up to 2500 and when the engine settles to idle you hear a chain type rattle for a split second. Idles normal. Sounds like theres an exhaust leak somewhere...but there is no leak.
On cold start up, the engine does rattle a second. But I hear it's normal. What is not normal is the slight chain rattle sound coming from the front driver side bank. right underneath where I pinpointed the sound is the cam tensioner.
I removed both valve covers to check their conditions. The guides look normal and intact. There is no visible damage. The chains don't feel loose. I wiggled them with my fingers. They are pretty tight.
I have been driving like this for almost two years. The short Chain rattle sound comes when you let your foot off the gas and car returns to idle...that is exactly when you hear it for a split second before engine idles at about 1000 rpm.

It drives me crazy. Does it hot or cold. No engine codes. Car drives normal. So is there any way I can be sure the cam shaft adjuster is bad? It is mechanical from what I understand. It is operated by a solenoid.. And is there a way to swap out the tensioner assembly without removing the entire front end and timing components? Bently manual says to remove the engine. **** that! my mother will do it. How ******* easy Bently makes it sound. First step: Remove engine, Second step: remove toothed belt and components. I just installed a new timing belt and sold my camshaft locking tool afterwards. I don't want to buy more expensive parts and tools if it is not necessary. Has anyone ever swapped a tensioner out from the driver side without removing the entire face of the car and engine timing belt? Is there a Do it yourself write up on the web? please point me in the right direction. finally...where can I buy a Chain adjuster/tensioner for less than $800 bucks the dealer is selling me.
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  #2  
Old 02-12-2010, 02:52 PM
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Default Cam Adjuster

Hi,

I don't know of any way of removing the cam chain tensioner without putting the front clip in the service position and removing the timing belt and cam spockets. But if you're shopping for a replacement tensioner, I included a link for a merchant selling them at a lower price than the dealer. Still not cheap at over $550 each.

Good luck with the car.

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/se...hain+Tensioner)
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2010, 03:10 PM
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Here is a DIY.

Cam Tensioner DIY

And you do NOT need to remove the timing belt. Read the thread.
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  #4  
Old 02-14-2010, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hxgaser View Post
Here is a DIY.

Cam Tensioner DIY

And you do NOT need to remove the timing belt. Read the thread.


The problem with that DIY write up is that my cam sprocket on the driver's side is bolted directly infront of the tensioner. The DIY shows a cam tensioner on the opposite side of the camshaft sprocket, opposite of the cam sprocket. I don't understand if the belt tension (there will be tension) will be a problem when I remove the bearing caps. It looks like I will have a nice saturday ******* around with this small part. Looks like I will have to bite the bullet with the cost of the tensioner and the cam locking tools and such. I checked everywhere online and it looks like a dealer only item. Is there a place online to buy a new one for cheaper? The link does not show any in stock
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  #5  
Old 02-14-2010, 03:49 PM
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My bentley manual on DVD shows a chain on the oil pump. It looks easy to swap out. The oil pump looks like it also has a tensioner.

The car does rattle upon cold start. If there a way to check oil pressure? or proper fucntioning of the oil pump? My guages only mark oil temp.

I am still baffled with the mysterious tiny chain rattle coming from the front top end. Dont know where to start
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2010, 12:52 AM
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Did you already change the tensioner? You can still do it like in my DIY, just clamp the belt with the channel lock, then unbolt the cam sprocket and let it hang over the radiator with the belt still on it, it won't change the timing.
You can check the oil pressure by removing the oil pressure sender on the back of the oil cooler and thread in a oil pressure tool. Its kind of a pain in the butt to get at on the V motors though, you'll see......
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by auditech79 View Post
Did you already change the tensioner? You can still do it like in my DIY, just clamp the belt with the channel lock, then unbolt the cam sprocket and let it hang over the radiator with the belt still on it, it won't change the timing.
You can check the oil pressure by removing the oil pressure sender on the back of the oil cooler and thread in a oil pressure tool. Its kind of a pain in the butt to get at on the V motors though, you'll see......
No I haven't changed it. I am waiting for the tensioner to arrive. Maybe tomorrow morning or Wednesday the latest. I bought a used assembly from Shokans for $345 bucks. Audi wants $800. I will try it your way first. I am almost sure it's the tensioner. Because the chain rattle comes from that specific spot under the valve cover. I am afraid that the belts tension will be a problem to put back. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't want theories...I want someone who has actually done this side (driver side), to tell me yes it's easy I did it. Not guessing. Cause if I am gonna run into trouble, I might as well order the camshaft and crankshft locking tools right now so I can get this done before Friday. Car still runs fine.... but I don't want any down time. I hope this method works (clamping down the belt and removing the sprocket.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2010, 01:04 AM
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It does work, i have done it. Many many many times. I think only once i had to relieve the tension on the hydraulic tensioner by using my ratchet and an allan socket, once its turned back you just insert a pin in the hole (you will see it) to hold the tensioner down. This will give you more than enough slack in the belt to complete the job if you find it hard to get the sprocket back on. There is a specific pin you can buy from audi, but thats not needed, you can use a big *** paper clip or a super thin punch works too.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:04 AM
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Oh BTW, you can buy cam tensioners in the $600 range from ecstuning and puremotorsports brand new.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:33 AM
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Auditech,

I still don't see that this will work properly. When he pulls the cam sproket off the cam, he loses the relationship between the cam and the cam sprocket, which sets the cam timing to the crank. If he then removes the cam, replaces the tensioner then puts the cams back in place, even if he is really careful, how does he make sure that the cam to cam gear timing is correct and not just close enough? Normally, the cam bar would set the cam timing to the crank and then you put the belt on where ever it goes and tighten it down to lock in the timing. How does he do this without the cam tool? It doesn't take much for the cams to be off enough to feel.

Bob
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  #11  
Old 02-16-2010, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob martin View Post
Auditech,

I still don't see that this will work properly. When he pulls the cam sproket off the cam, he loses the relationship between the cam and the cam sprocket, which sets the cam timing to the crank. If he then removes the cam, replaces the tensioner then puts the cams back in place, even if he is really careful, how does he make sure that the cam to cam gear timing is correct and not just close enough? Normally, the cam bar would set the cam timing to the crank and then you put the belt on where ever it goes and tighten it down to lock in the timing. How does he do this without the cam tool? It doesn't take much for the cams to be off enough to feel.

Bob
**** dude you're right. I already started the job this morning and I happen to check the forum now. He is right... The sprocket is not keyed( goes on one way only). It just spins on the untill tightened. Looks like the DIY is possible without unbolting the sprocket off the camshaft. Man I am stuck now. Tell me i don't have to buy a camshaft locking bar, a crankshaft locking pin. I can deal with the extra work removing the bumper and face....but I don't have the money and shipping patientce to look on the internet and order more expensive tools. The offer to sell this car for $1000 bucks still stands. The mother ****** is going over the skyway bridge tonight. I just about had it with Audi. Good old fashion Chevy Camaro t-tops with an iron 3800 series will do it for me next time. Anyone want to trade??? Oh and $600 dollars and an extra $150 for tools, and more ******* labor, just for a stupid little thing that weighs less than a pound. In one year this car with it's special tools for every ****** thing and special tools to align and special tools for changing the oil and comon things has cost me the price of a nice American car. I could have bought another truck or car. How come these four little rings make a person so stupid??? Like falling in love and getting ***** whipped with a beautiful girl and you keep throwing time and money at her hoping she'll change....dump that bitch and get on with your life!

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Old 02-16-2010, 02:13 PM
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If you loosened the cam sprockets, then indeed you are fucked. Anyways, you can rent a set of tools from Blauparts for about $40 plus shipping. You get all the goodies, not only the cam lock bar.

I don't want to sound like an a-hole, but you need to do some homework before attacking a big repair job like this. Audis aren't the only cars with specialties tools. Yes you can open up a small block with a set to sockets, but when was the last time you opened up a late model DOHC head on a typical domestic vehicle? You still need alignment and specialty tools. Just think of it this way... it will last you longer now. Sometimes having fly bitches are better than run of the mill janes. If you treat them right, they treat you right.

Anyways, since you will be opening up everything again, replace the cam seals if you haven't done them already.
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  #13  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hxgaser View Post
If you loosened the cam sprockets, then indeed you are fucked. Anyways, you can rent a set of tools from Blauparts for about $40 plus shipping. You get all the goodies, not only the cam lock bar.

I don't want to sound like an a-hole, but you need to do some homework before attacking a big repair job like this. Audis aren't the only cars with specialties tools. Yes you can open up a small block with a set to sockets, but when was the last time you opened up a late model DOHC head on a typical domestic vehicle? You still need alignment and specialty tools. Just think of it this way... it will last you longer now. Sometimes having fly bitches are better than run of the mill janes. If you treat them right, they treat you right.

Anyways, since you will be opening up everything again, replace the cam seals if you haven't done them already.

LOL....no I didn't loosen the Cam Sprocket. I took valve cover off and loosened camshaft caps and I had to take a **** so i went on here and this Bob guy has a point. Here is a video after I put everything back together this morning. I took it with my iphone. Hope it helps understand exactly what I'm talking about....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-0RKEktdVI

So... for the record and once and for all... is it truly possible to swap out the tensioner on this side without having to remove the belt or loosen the sproket???? I have the tensioner in my hands and it looks pretty good. I want to order the timing tools on ebay from el paso tools. **** blaukpunks... they are too expensive. I am still using Mobil one fully synthetic ATF and it shifts fine. You fools pay too much for Dexron 3 with another name and color.

Here is another angle of the noise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kObl8ElobuY

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  #14  
Old 02-19-2010, 02:03 AM
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Well, I ordered the cam holding bar and crank lock pin. The do it yourself says 16 chain rollers and I think that's incorrect. I see 15 chain rollers would align the nothes in the back with the arrows on the caps. Doesn't make no sense. I am following my instinct here. I also noticed you said remove the sprocket and lay it over the radiator....then you switched your story and said if I remove the sprocket "I'm fucked".

So anyway...people if you learn anything from me...learn this....Do not listen to these kids on the forum that borrow their dad's tools and never bring them back. Take the ideas, but double check official manuals. If Bob didn't mention about the sprocket, I'd probably take a short cut out of laziness and fucked up my valves reading the Do it yourself link in this thread.

It ain't 16...it is 15 chain links. I can not verify for certain...but the marks dont line up at 16.

Can anybody confirm this so I can put this car back together?????
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:47 AM
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When you are referring to "you" are you referring to me? I don't believe I said to lay the sprocket over the radiator(?) I did say if you remove the sprocket, then you are fucked, in a context where you don't have the cam lock bar. If you do, then you are okay.

As for the 16 chain links, refer to this diagram that I generated a couple of years back.

Click the image to open in full size.
It is 16, not 15. I noticed on mine that my intake cam marking was actually on a valley, not on the tooth. But just count 16 including the chainlink right above the mark.
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Old 02-19-2010, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hxgaser View Post
When you are referring to "you" are you referring to me? I don't believe I said to lay the sprocket over the radiator(?) I did say if you remove the sprocket, then you are fucked, in a context where you don't have the cam lock bar. If you do, then you are okay.

As for the 16 chain links, refer to this diagram that I generated a couple of years back.

Click the image to open in full size.
It is 16, not 15. I noticed on mine that my intake cam marking was actually on a valley, not on the tooth. But just count 16 including the chainlink right above the mark.
I tried 16 chain rollers between valleys where the square notch is. It doesn't look or feel right because of the arrows on the cam caps don't match up with the squares. I put it at 15 and this morning I confirmed I was right following my instinct. So before I started the car I double checked. And it turns out to be 15 chain rollers for my particular vehicle. When I turn the crank two times clock wise, the two squares align perfect with the two arrows on the left cylinder head on a V-8. The crank shaft notch is perfect on TDC also. It looked golden to start up. I started her up 5 minutes ago. It fired right up...made a violent rattle until the oil reached the top end and noise went away. THE CAR STILL MAKES THE SAME ******* CHAIN RATTLE NOISE! After all that work and money... The same exact noise is still there after swapping out the entire tensioner assembly with solenoid. How could this be???? What else could be causing the noise you hear in the video clips??? any ideas before I put the bumper back on and drive it till it dies??? Thicker oil? I am using 10w30 Florida. I seafoamed it but it still does it. What are the chances of two faulty tensioners?
Attached Thumbnails
Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?-audi-pictures-027.jpg   Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?-audi-pictures-028.jpg   Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?-audi-pictures-029.jpg   Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?-audi-pictures-030.jpg   Is it possible to change the cam adjuster without removing the timing belt?-audi-pictures-031.jpg  


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Old 02-19-2010, 11:52 PM
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I've never had a problem getting the belt exactly where it was before, thats why i use white out on the belt and a spot on the valve cover to know exactly where it goes back. If you had the channel lock on the belt and the one pulley is unbolted, 99% chance there won't be enough tension on the other cam and crank to turn the engine. This was an advanced move on a V6 yes, perhaps i should have added you can use the cam bar at the end of the job to make sure everything is A OK. I assumed you knew what you were doing, i apologize for not explaining it better, that DIY was for a 1.8T
It should be 16 teeth on the tensioner, However if you had one tooth off the cam chain you would have misfire heaven, so you must have gotten it right. Strange that your repair manual says 15 teeth, first time i have seen that because all the cylinder heads for the 1.8T, 2.8, 2.7, and 4.2L are exactly the same as far as the tensioner goes.

As for the rattling, it can take up to 50 miles of driving before the chatter goes away, takes a little bit of breaking in. If it still chatters after that, then maybe you have an oil pressure problem starving the tensioner of oil. Pull the oil sender out of the oil cooler and insert a pressure gauge and see what you got.
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:43 AM
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It has gotten a little quieter after driving it 18 miles today. You can barely hear it now. But I am reving it on purpose. If you don't tell anyone about it, they won't even notice. But I notice it and it's probably been doing that since I bought it. But after a while we tend to notice every imperfection of our cars. The tensioners are definately working...cause you can obviously hear them adjusting loudly.

The oil pressure was my next move. But I will save that project for another day. I doubt the oil pressure is bad. Maybe I'll change the oil to 10W-50 or add lucas oil treatment to see if it helps.

By the way, I am selling my brand new Camshaft holding bar (T40005), crankshaft tool 3242, ZF-5HP24A Transmission repair manual -Complete overhaul illustration manual. Ebahn repair DVD's covers every Audi, A4,A6,A8 and other Audis all years.... For $350 bucks bonanza special. I also have the little tool to tension the cam tentioners, and the tool for the ecentric tensioner. For sale. No more ******* around with this car. I threw away $650 bucks these past three days for nothing. same results. This is it. I am driving this car untill it dies. Everything is new on this car. Timing belt, water pump, 4 new tires, new tranny, new rotors, new shocks and struts, new front wheel bearings, new fuel pump, new transmission control module, New headliner, fixed the warped dash folding up on the sides, new window regulators, home made motor and tranny mounts with 3m window sealer... runs real ****** solid... New AC compressor....what the **** man....No more more being a victim to this stupid car. I will trade for a Pointiac trans AM, Camaro or Mustang anyday.
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:59 AM
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Thats why i have a 99 GMC sierra as my DD.
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Old 03-28-2010, 07:35 PM
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I just got back from New York. I drove my audi from Tampa to New York and Philly and Atlantic City and it ran like a charm. Still makes the chain rattle sound all the time....but the car was very reliable and stable. I put more than 3000 miles in a month... Goes to show that the ATF Fluid from the factory is bullshit. Mobile 1 synthetic ATF for audi is fine. even dextron 3 is fine. Been driving like crazy for about a year, and the rebuild job was easy and successful and cheap! only $600 bucks. Changed the filter not too long ago just to see the pan and magnets....looks really clean and bright red still. Damn I'm good! The chain rattle though has me stressing still. I even poured in a Lucas synthetic oil treatment to thicken the royal purple oil change(synthetic also)... and the thicker oils dont make a difrence to the rattle sounds in the video.
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Old 03-28-2010, 07:35 PM
 
 
 
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