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Audi A8 This full sized Audi A8 sedan offers interior luxury and spaciousness comparable to any car in the full sized luxury sedan class

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  #1  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:01 AM
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Default Esp malfunction

My AUDI A8 2003 (D3) Esp warning light is on continuously , what could be wrong . Please help

Last edited by schiu; 07-19-2010 at 07:52 PM. Reason: wrong information
  #2  
Old 07-19-2010, 06:05 PM
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Could that be be "EPC" ... or possibly "ESP".
Not familiar with "EPS"...at least, not on a D2 (?)
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:07 PM
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I'm guessing ESP. Hate to ask the obvious, but you didn't hit the ESP button accidentally?
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo18 View Post
I'm guessing ESP. Hate to ask the obvious, but you didn't hit the ESP button accidentally?
Good question...and the best possible scenario.

If it's "EPC" (electronic power control), the engine "should" be in limp mode (very low power) according to Audi Owner Manual, triggered by the engine control module, because it detected a problem with the electronic throttle control. Even if it's not in limp mode, "EPC" still indicates a detected problem there, unless the ECM is sending a false signal for some other reason...ECM problem, sensor, wiring, etc..
Other owners have said they've gotten this light and limp mode, but has gone away after restarting the car.

P.S. Isn't a 2003 model A8 still a D2 ? I'm just going by Bentley info...they don't show a mid-year change, but I've seen another source that said D3's started late in the 2003 model production (?). Just curious.

Last edited by silverd2; 07-20-2010 at 08:11 AM.
  #5  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:42 PM
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Well, being the ESP light (saw your correction), if you haven't turned it off with the dash switch and the light is staying on, you very well may not have anti-lock brake function either (plus no traction control or stability functions).

If the anti-lock module fails (electronic/hydraulic block under hood with brake lines connected), this ESP light will stay on....the two systems are dependent on each other (ABS and ESP). With a failed module, the ABS light will not necessarily turn on also.

If you turn off the ESP, the anti-lock brakes WILL continue to function, but NOT the stability control or traction control...IF all is normal.

If the ESP light is staying on by itself, you can test your brakes by hittin em hard in gravel or wet surface...if you skid, the ABS module may have failed. If anti-lock IS working, the problem is elsewhere in the ESP system (?).

Curious to hear an update, when you know anything.

Last edited by silverd2; 07-20-2010 at 05:51 PM.
  #6  
Old 07-20-2010, 05:56 PM
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The ABS module is a good posibility, the A4 and A6 suffers from this problem quite frequently, however never have i come across this on an A8. I would be looking at the wheel speed sensors for debris or damage before condeming the module. The reluctor rings could also be damaged, have you had your CV boots replaced recently?
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:26 AM
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Thanks for all your reply. I ' been told by the independant Audi specialist today that the ABS computer is faulty and it costs adout 1000 euros to fix. My car is a MARCH 2003 D3 model , and the mechanics said he will contact Audi dealer to see if i can claim goodwill warranty as some parts are covered for 6-7 years. Apart from that he said the oxygen sensor and the maf sensor are malfunction (what are they, is it necessary to replace them)
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Old 07-21-2010, 06:14 PM
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Ouch, thats a tough break mate. If thats what causing it make sure to get that warranty and never lose that piece of paper!

The oxygen sensor monitors oxygen in the exhaust system, primarily to calculate the fuel ratio when the engine is warm or more commonly called closed loop. This only applies to the before cat O2 sensor, the after cat O2 sensor just checks the functionality of the cat coverter itself. It won't affect engine performance, but will cause you to fail emmissions tests. (not sure what the europe standard is though)

The MAF (mass air flow) sensor does the same thing as the O2 sensor essentially when the engine is cold, it also does the job of calculating engine load as well as many other inputs that im not gonna get into. If the mechanic is sure both of these are bad i would recommend replacing them.
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2010, 07:01 PM
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" I ' been told by the independent Audi specialist today that the ABS computer is faulty and it costs about 1000 euros to fix." --SCHIU

CAUTION : THIS IS NOT ADVICE for SCHIU !!
I lack the expertise to offer that in this case...especially if you can get it done under warranty, are not a mechanic, do not have a good friend who's a very competent mechanic AND can't let the car be disabled for a period of time...AND cost is not a "crippling" problem.

It's more a question and subject of discussion for AUDITECH79 and others with knowledge of this problem (and it's gonna be a "novel"):

I'm assuming, from the cost quote and description, that we're talking about (SHCIU's "ABS computer") our aforementioned ABS Module...please tell me if I'm wrong. On that assumption (and regardless), I'll start with a short story:

Years back, my wife's 2000 Passat GLX V6 (FWD) had an ABS module failure. I was heavily involved in another project at the time and did not give the problem my personal attention, which it deserved... AND I hate myself and regret not researching it to this day. It was out of warranty and cost her around $1500. All I did was give the Audi dealer a hard time about the cost and they swore the problem couldn't be anything else AND these modules couldn't be repaired by ANYONE! My wife told me to drop it, she wanted to pay the money and be done with it. I let it go and got back to my own project.

If I ever have a similar failure, I'll be taking another route, after all the reading I did later...and was ashamed for not checking into it deeper. One forum that has discussed this problem for years is this one:

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/th...art=0&tstart=0

It's a B5 forum and is now 32 pages long, full of personal experiences, repair suggestions and a LOT of companies that have repaired these modules successfully...admittedly, a few of the repaired (or replaced) module owners reported "coding" problems after the fact (over my head at this point)...BUT most of these people in this and other (mostly B5) forums have reported great success with rebuilds in the $100-200 range (rebuild only) and a few with successful self-repairs of these supposedly "un-repairable modules".

As it was pointed out by AUDITECH79, this seems to be a real sore spot with B5 (A4, Passat, etc...) and the only source where I have luck finding info IS indeed in B5 forums, including the one here, which touches on repair rather than replacement.

My "question-observation-future fear" is the following...but I'll start with a list of module numbers that the Bentley forum (from their survey) concluded were among the most likely to fail...and prepare to have something new to worry about :

" The following documented vehicle modules are experiencing high failure rates:
8E0614111A, 8E0614111E
8E0614111B, 8E0614111F
8E0614111AH, 8E0614111AJ
8E0614111AA, 8E0614111T
8E0614111P, 8E0614111Q 8E0614111D
8E0614111R, 8E0614111S
8E0614111M, 8E0614111N 8E0614111C "

My wife's module was the 8E0614111A. The one presently in my '01 A8 is the 8E0614111T (listed above !!!). When I cross-referenced this number (including the Bosch # on the unit), I found that exact module is used in a plethora of other AWD models, including AWD B5, C's (A6) in many year models...back as far as '94.
When you visually inspect modules from ALL the numbers above, they are all identical in physical appearance, just a different ending letter depending on the model VW or Audi used in (and AWD or FWD).

If it happens to me again, AND THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY ADVICE FOR ANYONE ELSE, my first move will be to check out the list of companies that repair these modules...and, of course, other components in the system which might trigger the warning.

As always, Any and ALL thoughts on this subject welcomed.

Thanks.

Last edited by silverd2; 07-22-2010 at 09:45 PM.
  #10  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:54 PM
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^^^ Yes this information is all correct, the company most familliar with audi ABS (bosch) units is modulemasters, there are many other companies that can rebuild these modules as they aren't much different than any other ABS systems availaibe on the market. If the A8 does indeed have a bad module, modulemasters can probably repair it, however i doubt they have had too many sent to them. The engineers spared no expense when designing the A8, and almost every module/wire in that car is state of the art.
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  #11  
Old 07-26-2010, 10:39 AM
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I was reading an article on AUDI forums about esp light on . It said could be the MAF sensor or brake light switch faulty but how could it affect the esp. (AUDI dealer quoted me 3000 euros to change the ABS module and i' been told before by an independant specialist that the MAF sensor is faulty as i don't trust the dealer since some other bad experience )
  #12  
Old 07-26-2010, 01:18 PM
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Run away from that dealer as fast as you can...they are seconds away from pulling a gun on you and killing you for your wallet & wristwatch.

Even if replacing a brand new ABS module at Audi part and labor price, it should be no more than 1500 euro (about $2000 U.S.)....actually less. The labor is NOT that involved.
Don't know what country you're in, but there are companies worldwide that test and/or rebuild abs modules at reasonable prices...BBA-Reman in UK, for instance...they will also evaluate modules for rebuild possibility. Also many similar companies sell rebuilt modules with lifetime warranty.

The MAF should not have anything to do with the ESP light...the brake light switch, as I understand, may be tied into that system, but don't know if it could trigger the light.

Unless you are made of money and can't be without the car for more than a day, GO TO AN INDEPENDENT GARAGE. They can hook an OBD-2 scanner to the car to confirm the MAF problem and should be able to confirm a brake light switch problem also (if it exists). If they have no OBD-2 scanning & coding capability, leave immediately...they are not qualified to work on your car.
A good mechanic at a good facility can find an ABS module for you, if that is what is needed (new, repaired or replace with reman module). The work to change it is not that involved for a good mechanic.

The price quoted by your Audi "stealer" is beyond all reason...that labor charge should be enough to swap a transmission.

Last edited by silverd2; 07-26-2010 at 05:09 PM.
  #13  
Old 07-26-2010, 01:45 PM
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P.S. Additional info:

After looking at BBA-Reman (just one of many companies), in many cases the electronic part of the module can be separated from the hydraulic unit and the car remain drivable in the interim...minus ABS and traction control functions.

http://www.bba-reman.com/content.asp....3_ABS_Removal

I've read this in countless other tech forums and rebuild company info also.

The major point being, the dealer automatically (in my experience) replaces the entire unit, electronic / hydraulic together and tells you incorrectly, that this is the only way it can be done...not true...thus a much higher price. The problem, if one exists, is almost always in the electronics.

I'm hoping that all this info will help you when talking to a qualified mechanic...NOT the Audi dealer. The more you know , the more respect you'll receive from the mechanic....and be a little less likely to get robbed.

Good luck.

Last edited by silverd2; 07-26-2010 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:30 PM
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Unfortunatley, the only way to get a new unit from Audi is the complete unit. Yes, I'm a tech at an Audi dealership btw. List price is $1,600. You are correct that the labor is not that much. If you take your time, to R&R the unit and pressure bleed the system will be an hours labor. Last one I did, we got a used assy from a salvage yard here for $400, and I think labor was $250 (2 hours@$125/hr) and that included diag time.

At the "Stealerships" we are in the same boat as the rest of you in that we don't have much control over the price of the parts, they are what they are, hence installing a used unit for 1/4th the price..............

Oh yeah, the brake light switch could cause the ESP light to come on. There's actually 2 switches in it. If the ABS doesn't "see" both activate at exactly the same time, AND below a certain brake fluid pressure (3.0bar or less) it will detect a fault and disable the ESP (and usually the ABS as well). The switch is a common failure item and is only about $12 (even at the "Stealership"!) and it takes roughly 10 minutes to install. At one point there was a campaign to replace the switches on certain years and models. The current switches are a revised design, and manufacturer if I understand correctly.

Last edited by aspen79; 07-26-2010 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:44 AM
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Thanks, aspen79.

First, I hope I didn't offend you as an obviously honorable employee and trained specialist. I picked up the "S" term from bad influences here on these forums
I don't think anyone here would badly prejudge a tech, just because they work at an Audi dealer. On the contrary, I highly value your views and information. It's kinda like working for the government....a lot of good/talented people AND a few (maybe a lot) of bad ones...depends on personal experience.

I envy those who have written words of praise for their local dealers. Unfortunately, in my area, there's only one Audi/Porsche/VW dealer (all-in-one) for many miles, so they have no competition and take full unethical advantage of that fact. In their case it's a problem from the management down...even their head techs are not only incompetent (multiple personal experiences), but equally unethical...seems like a virus or brainwashing. They also abuse the uninformed on a regular basis. I won't name the dealer at this point...could write pages about their reign of terror (they've had the monopoly for many years)....I'll save that for another time in a relevant thread.

Anyway, thanks so much for confirming a fair price for the ABS module switch, from an insiders point of view AND the information on the brake switches.
I hope you post on a regular basis and look forward to any further confirmations...or corrections, when I (or anyone) gets it wrong. I wanna know...I am far from an expert...just an enthusiast/shade tree mechanic.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:14 PM
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I should also add, that the MAF sensor, just like the brake light switch, is tied into the brake electronics. I HAVE seen a bad MAF cause an ESP light, since it calculates engine load, the brake electronics also use it as an input. The brake light switch is the cheapest and easiest to replace, you can also diagnose it with a vag com but thats complicated and you have to know exactly what your looking at, i say just replace it. Then clean the MAF with MAF cleaner only! then clear the faults and see what comes back. The mechanic you're dealing with is not the sharpest tool in the shed i would imagine.
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Old 07-27-2010, 05:58 PM
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Read and learn.
Even though this is not my problem yet, I'm intrigued... I like to be forewarned for worst case scenarios.
I've just got the Bentley CD manual to study...also don't have VAG.com (will eventually...just a simple code reader now) so haven't delved deeply into that section except for codes I've found with my reader.
Bentley's component overview for ABS doesn't show the MAF as part of the system, but then again it doesn't show the ECM either. When reading deeply into the Vag.com section and wiring diagrams, I see the connection.
Thanks for your qualified input. Please keep it coming...I always wanna learn more...not to mention SCHIU, who DOES have the problem.
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:47 AM
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I've been told by the independant audi specialist today that they've tried a new maf sensor and the ESP light goes off. This part alone is going to cost 400 euros but i've managed to find cheaper from elsewhere. Good job i didn't listen to the dealer about the 3000euros ABS module. My car is having full service, brake fluid change, transmission fluid change , MOT and will be ready tomorrow. I am in HONG KONG and there is only one AUDI dealer and they can charge whatever they like , a full service cost 1000 euros( in hong kong dollars is 12000 ). The MAF sensor from the dealer is 700 euros ( parts only), every time i walk in to the dealer i have to expect a charge of over 1000 euros even an inital inspection is 80 euros per item ie if 10 items is 800 euros. My car was purchased in UK , as i originally resident in England. The car has TV function but somehow the TV icon disappear from the MMI . I did contact AUDI dealer in England and they advise to go to AUDI hong kong and have the car connected to Germany to reset the MMI . Obviously audi hk refuse and they keep on saying the TV tuner is malfunction and cost 2000 euros for the part. OK if there is a faulty tuner the TV icon should'nt disappear . The independant specialist has no idea how to fix this. Is there any other way to reset the MMI without begging the dealer .Could the MAF sensor be cleaned instead of getting a new one

Last edited by schiu; 07-28-2010 at 09:46 AM. Reason: more information
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:02 PM
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Yes you can clean the MAF sensor with MAF sensor cleaner, it may not work though. As for re-setting the MMI there is a procedure for re-booting it by pushing 3 buttons, however i don't know what the three buttons are, it should be in your owner's manual or you can find it online.

Can't you get parts online shipped to Hong Kong? I know there are aftermarket part dealers for audi in the UK which has to be cheaper than getting hosed at the dealer.
Some of the US companies will ship overseas as well.
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