Posts: 1561
Joined: 8/24/2005 From: Brooklyn, NY Status: offline
most cars use Dexron III as power stiring fluid, I wonder can we also use it in our cars as power stiring fluid. The thing is that my stiring column is liking badly, and using preston 11s is expensive. it liks about from max to min in about 1 or 1.5 month
one thing I've learned about audis is that you should always use what they tell you to use cause due to the overcomplexity of everything on audis there's always something that can go wrong with something er other by using the "wrong" fluid. I'm not sure how it is on your car but the power stearing fluid on my car is also the same fluid for the break booster and what not. Not to mention crappy fluid could cause premature failure of your power stearing pump(or so they say).
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/9/2004 From: Swamplands of NJ Status: offline
Here we go again "To Pentosin or not" that is question! Automatic transmission fluid isn't designed to work with 3000psi of pressure. Since the Audi uses one central pump to power both the steering and brakes. The pump has two chambers and one charges the brake accumulator to provide brake boost.
Can you use ATF? Probably, do a search there are some members who have been using it in Audi 5000 with no ill affect. But I think that there is a reason why Audi chose to use Pentosin. I also think that the ATF is thinner then Pentosin and if so you will really see some serious leaking.
Posts: 758
Joined: 3/9/2004 From: Swamplands of NJ Status: offline
I am guessing that Audi decided to use Pentosin to make it consistent across all models. My old 4000S didn't use Pentosin it was either ATF or Power Steering Fluid (clear not red). I don't know what the compatibility is between the three types of fluids.
I read this first at the Bentley's forum, Pentosin, period. I don't like the 15 bucks per litre at my local foreign parts place, either.
Wondered if it also applied to my older cars, just checked my '84-'88 manual, Audi Hydraulic Oil, AOE 041 020 10, or ARAL hyd oil 1010. I assume that is the old Audi Pentosin, it sure as hell ain't ATF
My '77-'83 manual says Dexron ATF.
Funny thing is, those cars, a '79, 80 Diesel, and '82 Diesel were the worst leakers I ever had. Had to replace a steering rack for lack of rebuild kit availability.
My '85 Turbo leaked constantly, worse than your month to month and a half top up. Was unaware that you shouldn't use ATF, as it was already full of "red stuff", kept topping up with ATF.
Present car, '90 100, with Pentosin, has not leaked a drop for over a year. When I do have to top up, I will spring for the "Green Gold", as I think it will take just a few ounces. Well worth it, against the cost of a rebuilt rack or bomb, or MC booster.
Kakarot, your pump and bomb are not going to leak from using ATF. Your rack is, and it gets a lot of use, and will leak a lot of fluid. One Diesel I had leaked a reservoir full per day, till I changed it out, PITA job. I'd suggest you replace the rack, flush the system with Pentosin before you connect to the rack, probably take a litre to flush, connect it up and refill, another litre or so. 30 bucks. Correct any other leaks you might have.
Vaccuum booster doesn't mean anything, it is still Pentosin filled steering, the hardest part of the hydraulic system to change, hence the most expensive. You CAN do it yourself, but they didn't make it easy, a rack near the width of the car, behind the engine, pulled out through the wheel well, and the steering stem sticking up into the passenger compartment footwell. Believe me, a major PITA. Not to mention trying just to get the damned connectors loose from the rack. Down in a little dark tunnel.
Good luck with the cheap stuff, if you decide to keep trying it. Eats the rubber away so that it takes tons more fluid to keep it full.
Cheers,
George
< Message edited by gmatov -- 10/2/2005 10:38:33 PM >
Aside from the pressures, the Pentosin is a mineral oil base. to use anything else would most assuredly result in leaks from the hoses, seals deteriorating. The engineers that make tons of money had a reason for chosing Pentosin...your choice if you want to run something else. Had a friend with a 97 Pontiac that decided he didn't want to pay an extra 1.50 per gallon for Dexcool antifreeze...put ethylene glycol antifreeze in instead...one blown engine later he buys Dexcool.
What's the difference between "ethylene glycol" and "polyethylene glycol", which is what all antifreeze is made of, today, indeed, as far back as '97, when the car was new?
I think there were other reasons for the kid to blow his motor.
If this happened in the past couple of years, since the "premixed" antifreeze, the 50-50 blend, half water, do not add water stuff, and he did add enough water to think he was getting to 50-50, OK. He screwed up.
If it was real ethylene, or polyethylene glycol, and he diluted to a 50-50 mix, he has a bitch.
Cheers,
George
It has been stated here, or at Bentley's forum, that you can buy mineral oil at the drugstore and use it, if you need a sub till you get the leaks fixed. Much cheaper, and less damage in the interim A few bucks a gallon, though not the real thing, as to viscosity, etc...
The difference between the two coolants was the corrosion protection additives, that lead to aluminum erosion when mixed. Which is what caused the engine to overheat and become a boat anchor...
Introduction: Equilon (owned by Texaco® and Shell®) markets a European coolant technology (OAT) that consists of ethylene glycol inhibited with a combination of sebacic acid and 2-ethylhexanoic acid supplemented with tolyltriazole. It was originally called "Long Life", but a lawsuit brought by Warren Oil, who markets a fully formulated coolant under the brand name "LongLife®) forced the retraction of that term form the DEXCOOL, Texaco and Caterpillar® packaging. The combination of a mono and dibasic carboxylic acids permitted Texaco to obtain a patent on the specific combination. Other companies have obtained similar patents, by varying the mixture somewhat and by using similar, but not exactly the same, chemistry.
General Motors® has been using this coolant technology in their cars and light trucks since the start-of-production of the 1996 model year vehicles (except Saturn®, which began in 1997). GMC® medium trucks equipped with Caterpillar engines, have been getting a nitrite-added form of DEXCOOL (NOAT) to insure protection against wet sleeve liner cavitation-erosion.
Frequently Asked Questions:
Can DEXCOOL organic acid antifreeze be mixed with ethylene glycol antifreeze? It is ethylene glycol based antifreeze! The concern with mixing comes from the fact that there are very different chemical inhibitor packages in use. Most leading technologies will work very well when used as intended, typically at 50% in good quality water. If the coolants become mixed with DEXCOOL, however, one study showed a possible aluminum corrosion problem in certain situations. The other question is a concern for dilution of the protection packages. At what mix is the there too little of either inhibitor to protect the engine? As a precaution, both GM and Caterpillar instruct that contaminated systems must be maintained as if they contained only conventional coolant.
As far as the mineral oil in the PS goes, no argument there, it has been used for the short term with no ill effects.
Seems there should be a lawsuit there, against the Dexcool people for making a product that reacts with the majority of antifreezes to cause a solution that will eat away at aluminum parts more quickly. Or to destroy both additive packages, with the same result.
I think that the oil companies have an agreement, or perhaps it is law that oils must be able to be mixed without damaging the lubing and cleaning properties. Probably instigated by the car makers, as they would be the first target of a blown engine suit, probably quickly a Class Action, as well as lost sales.
Cheers,
George
< Message edited by gmatov -- 10/4/2005 10:40:44 PM >
There were a bunch of lawsuits. The point of Dexcool was it was supposed to be a 100, 000+ mile antifreeze. What they found out was the radiators were getting plugged quickly, engines were leaking Dexcool, and engines were getting ruined...even the ones that never had a cheap owner put the "wrong" antifreeze in were getting plugged up and overheating. I think there is a big class action suit still in progress over it.
Posts: 1561
Joined: 8/24/2005 From: Brooklyn, NY Status: offline
I use the antifries that goes with all antifriezes is it okey? And by the way I use now syntetic power stiring fluid and no funny noises coming out of the engine.
The companies that make the antifreezes that are compatable with both dexcool and standard ethylene glycol swear that there are no problems, and I haven't heard of any. Best thing that you could do is make sure you flush the cooling system thorughly before putting in something different than what is currently in the system. Unless you or a previous owner put dexcool in your car, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just make sure whatever antifreeze you put in is phosphate free(hehe and not dexcool).
The oil companies manufacture engine oil to standards described by the SAE, Societty of Automotive Engineers. There are a few other organizations that measure standards...but the standard worldwide seems to be SAE. Engineers that build the engines of todays cars really just pick what standards meet their requirements and that is what gets printed in your owners manual. Unless of course a new engine requires something special, then the chemists get to work at the oil companies and the SAE grades it.
Back in the late '80s, the Chevy manuals specifically warned you against too much viscosity enhancer, specifically, if you used 10-40, rather than 20-40, you WOULD varnish the rings, it would be specifically denied under the warranty. 20 W low to high, alright, more, and the varnish would build up.
I am kind of pissed, right now, as I just had my oil changed and asked for 20-40, they said they only had 10W-30. OK. Now my guage is topping out at about 4 BAR, rather than the 5 BAR before the change.
Cheers,
George
Rhib,
Yes, the SAE qualifies an oil, but the mfgs determine what their requirements are. SAE does not say, Here's what we got, take it or leave it. Kinda like Audi says use Pentosin rather than the PS fluid on the racks.
Gotta love GM engineers...I can't complain about em though. I have a 94 GMC Sonoma that is just shy of 200,000 miles no major repairs and doesnt burn a drop of oil or leak any fluids. All this on 5W-30 as recommended by the owners manual...hehehe and no dexcool!
quote:
Yes, the SAE qualifies an oil, but the mfgs determine what their requirements are. SAE does not say, Here's what we got, take it or leave it. Kinda like Audi says use Pentosin rather than the PS fluid on the racks.
quote:
[Engineers that build the engines of todays cars really just pick what standards meet their requirements and that is what gets printed in your owners manual. Unless of course a new engine requires something special, then the chemists get to work at the oil companies and the SAE grades it. /quote]
I thought that was the point I made...if not, so sorry.
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