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AWDaholic -> RE: Wider tires and Carbon Rotors on an RS4 (11/7/2007 7:01:41 PM)
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Jason, your points are duly noted.
My point, in simple terms:
You do not need to re-invent the wheel. You claim to come from a background of an engineering firm that deals wit brake upgrades, but your question belies that truth. QA? What? Documents? Brakes aren't some *new,* *exciting* technology recently embarked upon by Audi, Porsche, et-al. The FUNDEMANTALS remain, regardless of marque. You want me to continue sharp-shooting? Cause I can...
quote:
ORIGINAL: DCEL
Howdy Folks,
Im thinking about putting a set of 20's and Carbon Rotors/pads on my car. - Factory wheel IS 19". Maybe the rest of the aboriginals in the RS section are prone to believeing that 20's weigh the same as 19's, but, not me. IF you dealt with the industry in the manner in which you suggested, you'd KNOW this, as easily as you know your name...
How wide a tire can I run? Id like to run 275s if i can get them to fit. Anyone already done this? - Two things come to mind...
#1 You're going to go a FULL 50mm wider than stock (and, that's not even your "ideal" width, is it?), and not use a w - i - d - e - r - w - h - e - e - l - ? Oh RLY?!?!? Remind me NEVER to get into ANY car you've had for more than a week, OK! You, Sir, are an accident waiting to happen. Did this sort of thing for a living, you say? WOW!
#2 You may not remember, but, prior to my chiming in, all of 32 views had been made to your l'il query over the 4 days prior, and no one had ANYthing to say. What does that suggest to you? I also find it interesting to note that an additional 200-ish views have been made since my contribution (no matter how specious my additions may have been), and STILL no one has had anything constructive, directly or otherwise, about your proposal. Zero support for the concept. Hmmm...
Are the Porsche rotors and pads a straight swap? It looks like it. - Again, coming from a self-proclaimed background IN not only the industry, but, as YOU ascertain, specifically in the field of engineering brake upgrade applications, AND access to the internet (or else we wouldnlt be having this conversation, wood oui?), the best place you could think to voice your interogative was a room full of... Well, I won't ascribe labels. You've pointed out my hypocracy in that regard, so I will refrain from providing you the pleasure. Nevertheless, HAVE you heard of Google? They're ALL the rage these days. Stocks going throo tha ROOF, too! I doubt if two people reading these words have ever gotten grease under their nails before in their lives. REAL, grimey grease, the kind that takes days to dig/wash away...
Thanks for the input,
Honestly, if you had asked teh question in the Gen Tech section I doubt I would have had anything to say. Well, honestly, I doublt I would have needed to have bothered to say anything, others may have beaten me to it. Now, I may have been at least 3-ways wrong, for jumping your sch1tt like I originally did, but, everything you've added since then has more than justified my original reaction. Mod, or not. Your question REEKS of some trust-fund ne0b whose 'rents just bought him a new toy, and he wants teh distinction of being able to boast about his TWENTIES and how he "put on" (read: paid someone else to do it) Porsche brakes and now he can "stop-just-like-a-Carerra."
Dcel
And then we have...
quote:
ORIGINAL: DCEL
b7misanors4,
I like the way a 20 inch wheel scales the car (makes it look smaller) and the contrast of a black wheel on a silver car.
Also I think the car needs more rubber on the ground. 305's would be cool, i cant see it happening. - Stock tire width is 225. Here, you want to be "cool" by going 80mm wider. But, you're not image-conscious... are you? Tell me, what ARE you compensation for, hmmm?
Dcel
quote:
ORIGINAL: DCEL
AWDaholic,
Wow! Did my questions somehow offend you? - Actually, yes, it did, DUH! For all the reasons outlined in blue, above and below.
I wasn’t aware that I needed to go into a dissertation about why I wanted to make modifications. - No need, I think I've been aptly able to discern your intentions.
I can however comment on your specific statements.
1) I wouldn’t call it “BLING” (I envision 24” chrome hoops on a Cutlass Supreme when I hear that term) But as I stated in the post, I do like the look of a (little) bigger, black wheel. - Bling means different things to different people. To me, it generally means pointless Mods to one's car, simply for the sake of: a) modding it, or: b) bench-racing. You are obviously headed deep down B's road.
Even with my limited seat time, my car feels like it needs a more rubber on the ground. The 255’s seem to slide with little effort. I think 275’s would add some grip. - 255's?!?! Factory is, I believe, 225/35/19. I think you're experiencing some suspension limitations, since you're already 30mm over, but, you're the expert, as you so ably pointed out, below...
2) With regard to the Carbon Rotor/pads. It was simply a question. If you don’t have the answer, IT’S OK! You’re not being graded. Try to remain calm. - Just because you don't LIKE what I say doesn't mean I'm not calm.
Interestingly enough, I used to be the Quality Manager at Wilwood Engineering (A high performance disc brake manufacturer in So-cal) and as a side thing, I fabricate custom brake applications. I’ve done Vipers, old and new Corvettes, Mustangs, Import stuff, etc. (I am still a Wilwood dealer in anyone needs parts.) As a result, I have a fairly complete understanding of the process. - If your understanding WERE complete you wouldn't have NEEDED to post your statement about the carbob/carbon Porsche Mod, would you? But, *I'm* wrong for assuming your question was more about style than substance. Are you starting to see where I get all my *assumptions* from, Jason? Not clear yet? Then I'll continue...
So really I wasn’t looking for you to dissect the intricacies of changing to Carbon parts. - Onviously not.
Primarily, I was looking for someone (who hasn’t had too much REDBULL) to say was “Yea, that is a common swap, the Porsche parts bolt on” or “No way! they are completely different, everything has to be custom.” Or if it hasn’t been tried, a collective “we don’t know”. - Again, with ALL your experience in this arena, I'd've thought you'd've had a point of reference for this thing. Oh, wait, maybe the folks at Wilwood aren't as into posturing, vehicle-wise, as you.
For me, the best reason for changing to a Carbon rotor/pad is rotating mass. The iron rotors have no problem absorbing and shedding the heat generated by an RS4. - Rotating mass, you say... *I* still say your so-called experience in this area should have prevented this argument from escaping your finger-tips. Bigger (20" v. 19"), wider (275 - 305 v. 225) wheels DO weigh pounds more than the stock setup. This isn't a recent discovery. It's been KNOWN for decades.
But the weight has a detrimental effect on acceleration. As the cars are torque challenged to begin with, removing 15-20 lbs of rotating weight will be noticeable. - Torque challenged... And yet, you want biger, wider, heavier wheels. Anybody with half a clue (and, truthfully, that's about all I carry around with me, any given day) can see you simply want to trade one unsprung mass for another. In fact, since your original position advocated adding rotating mass, you were hobbling your horse even further. An industry "insider" would have known that, I think.
But I digress.
Your response has neither given me nor taught me to fish. More correctly you have given me the bird and quite pointedly, taught me NOT to ask questions. - Hopefully, I've coerced you towards thinking before asking. A well-formed, properly thought out question will give you the answer you seek. Bad question give Og bad answer.
So that we are clear, if I want something that says “Porsche” on it. It won’t be brake part. - But, isn't that what your original question contains? A brake part that says Porsche on it? Why not go with Wilwood parts. being an "authorized,"... But wait, I'm assuming, again, you don't actually say you are "authorized," do you. Just that you peddle their stuff. Either way, with your pre-existing relationship one would naturally asume you could get a "price" on their stuff. I'm just sayin'...
Jason
quote:
ORIGINAL: DCEL
AWDaholic,
I don’t wear “panties” (Not that I’m not judging your choices.) To that end, if that was my proclivity, they certainly are not in a bunch. The only one who seems agitated here is you (and now Silverseven). You continue to rant and insult, you call me a “doof with more money than brains, yet you call Rueb a "child" for “name calling? - Not ranting. Pointing out the holes and varioue inequeties in all your statements. As for Rueb. What, is he a friend of yours? Until he inserted himself into this conversation I did not know, and could still care less, about the planet even supporting his existance.
Is that the charge of a “Moderator”? To attempt to belittle and humiliate those who would reach out with questions? It would seem that your goal here is to inflame, not MODERATE.
"MAN UP” You must be joking. I posted a question, when I responded, I signed it with my name. I remain calm, when you have not. - If you knew me, you'd know that I'm being remarkably calm. Maybe it's my inner-Mod coming to the fore.
I have to ask again, why did this post upset you so? I would surmise from your “more money than brains” comment that it’s about money? - Nope. Brains.
To restate the position in deference to you. I am new to the Audi world and was simply trying not to “reinvent the wheel” (pun intended). You assume that the wheel I choose will be wider. I didn’t say that. - Didn't have to. The implication is clear. You CANNOT go THAT much wider, with a tire, and NOT increase the wheel-width. In this case your position literally will not hold air (pun intended... See, I can turn a phrase, too) You assume they will be heavier. I didn’t say that either. - Yet again, I can easily infer, all else being equal, biger, wider wheels & tires WILL weigh more. It's not rocket-surgery.
You assume much. - I assume you no longer work at Wilwood for a very good reason.
However, your comments about wheel weight did not fall on deaf ears. While at the SEMA show in Las Vegas last week I decided to purchase a set of the Carbon Magnesium Dymags as they offer a substantial weight savings. And then we have... - If you have only learned THAT much, then all my efforts have been worth it. Drive in peace.
Jason
And, as far as being a moderator goes, I didn't remove ANY of WHO I am when I added being a Mod to teh mix. I was BORN an arrogant ASS, and just got BIGGER! Towards THAT end (to paraphrase you), ask any of the other Mods or Admins about how much I do actually contribute to the forums. Not just as a Mod, mind you... Have YOU ever donated anything other than hot-air to the AF? Shared in any of the pain & suffering & healing & growing of your fellow AFers? FWIW, my wit was 1000-times more ascerbic before I became a Mod.
Nice jab about the panties, tho. Props! See, I can take shots as good as I give them. THAT'S what I mean by Man-up, Man.
Still, You & Reub comes off as SoCal-soft. What? Only ever deal with women & children who go along with everything you say without offering a dissenting position? That's WEAK! Well, Reub is, anyway. Your taste in wheel/brake setups may need refining, but you got style, at least.
You're on the right track with lightening the unsprung/rotating mass. But, when it comes to braking efficiency, you have to consider the thermal loads and how they're transferred, and balance that against how and where you plan on doing 99% of your driving. They few pounds/corner you'd shave by going Carbon/Carbon would be more than offset by teh much heavier wheel/tire pkg you originally hinted at/suggested. Maybe if you went to a softer compound, with a utog rating of around 280-ish, you'd find teh grip you seem to be chasing. You'll find you also will be able to brake incrementally harder with a softer compound, all else being equal. Have you also considered playing with your air pressure? A few pounds, in either direction, can dramatically affect grip, in any given application. If you ARE after better braking, too, which, you know, isn't specifically addressed in any of your posts (I don't wanna ASSUME, after all, do *I*?), you might consider flushing your fluid and going with something that has a higher boiling point. It won't generally decrease your breaking distances (the fulcrum's teh same, but you decrease it's maleability), and should reduce fade in repeated applications of hard braking. Hell, I think higher boiling-point fluids have a lighter specific atmospheric weight, also, so you cud save a few ounces of overall vehicular weight, as well... (OK, I made that last part up, but it SOUNDED good, for a minit, dint it?)
Enjoy your fish[:D]
Troy (but, as mentioned in teh sig, EVERYbody calls me Jazz, you should, too!)
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