I really love the stability that AWD gives but, sometimes its so false when you think its just regular conditions:( Today as i pulled out of my driveway I had no problmes getting going but once i hit the brakes ABS just kept kicking it. Here in chicago it snowed in the early morning and I guess while I was taking a nap it rained. So when I walked to my car to go to work I didn't think there was ice on the roads. AWD still beats anything else though! I wanted to open my door at a stop light and see if there was ice on the road cuz it sure as heck didn't feel like it at all:D. Quattro can help you get going but when there is ice, it doens't matter if you're FWD or RWD you're going to slide. There were a total of 6+ accidents that I heard of around my neighborhood. Driver safely eveyrone theres always gonna be that one idiot who does not think about the conditions and may end up rear ending you.

Yea that is true....I live in alaska so winter driving is an everyday thing for 7-8 months out of the year. I have a quattro and that is true about it helping to get moving but does nothing for you when trying to slow down. We can run studded tires through the winter months which helps ALOT but in other places you just really have to make sure your tires have a good all weather patern and even still you have to really pay attention to the black ice you may not see on the road because no matter how many wheels you have helping you get going....it does nothing for you when trying to get that speedo back to zero

Yes, Quattro FTW!!!

EXACTLY!!!!! quattro is great for moving... but how will you stop!!?

for example, i get up hills fine but im F*&ked when i have to slide my 5 ton car back down. or when i rippast everyone on the street then suddenly have to turn or stop at a light.... my car goesout ofcontrol... the car issoooo heavy that its tough to maneuver during a slide.

friends, please be aware of this.

AWD does not = AW stop. As a long time 4-wheeler, Iearned that years ago with my jeep. It's still sad to see big SUVs go screaming past me on the interstate in a snowstorm and then later pass them in a ditch.

You have to drive carefully even with quattro, but it makes a huge difference. The ABS reduces slides but you have to allow extra distance to stop when the road is icey.

4WD does not defy laws of physics. I live in Northern California and travel up tp Tahoe quite frequentlyin the winter. It is a popular sky destination. Anyways, poor fools with their $100K MB suvs and Range Rovers thinks that just because they have this expensive AWD, they are invincible. I see them half flipped over on the side of the road, and just laugh at them. AWD or not, in snow, you slow down. I also try not to brake as much as possible. Just use engine braking to slow down, without using high RPM. Even then, I tend to slide when it is really frozen.

Just because you have an AWD vehicle, does not mean that you are safe in any condition.

Yes, another thing is to be cautious to, black ice. My old car was FWD, last winter when I was going around a normal corner as I have always did in the past, coming in it seemed perfectly fine but I hit some black ice the car understeered and I nearly hit two cars.

As with all vehicles, the tires are the difference in control when it comes to winter driving. An Audi Quattro with dedicated winter ice and snow tires (NOT all season or M&S tires) is incredible. Check the rating of the tires for both ice traction and snow traction before buying. I have used Michelin Pilot Alpins for winters with few, if any, scary moments. It makes a huge difference. :)

Moral of the story kids...don't drive like a d**che.

On a side note I used to love puttering around in blizzards in my little A4 watching trucks go flying by me on the highway just to end up in a ditch a mile down the road. That and racing a diesel F250 from a stop light. He pretty much just went sideways even with 4WD while the A4 just took off straight down the road....good times, good times.

ORIGINAL: hxgaser

4WD does not defy laws of physics. I live in Northern California and travel up tp Tahoe quite frequentlyin the winter. It is a popular sky destination. Anyways, poor fools with their $100K MB suvs and Range Rovers thinks that just because they have this expensive AWD, they are invincible. I see them half flipped over on the side of the road, and just laugh at them. AWD or not, in snow, you slow down. I also try not to brake as much as possible. Just use engine braking to slow down, without using high RPM. Even then, I tend to slide when it is really frozen.

Just because you have an AWD vehicle, does not mean that you are safe in any condition.


that's what i do! i actually don't use the tiptronic in the A6 as much as i do in my passat. but when it is icy or snowy.. the tiptronic is a real luxury.

I drive in lower gears and have greater control, and hardly need to breakl.

ORIGINAL: ppgoal

AWD does not = AW stop. As a long time 4-wheeler, Iearned that years ago with my jeep. It's still sad to see big SUVs go screaming past me on the interstate in a snowstorm and then later pass them in a ditch.

You have to drive carefully even with quattro, but it makes a huge difference. The ABS reduces slides but you have to allow extra distance to stop when the road is icey.


ppgoal, how are the conti's?? those are the same ones im looking for... consumer reports quoted them as a best buy... they're an ultra high performance all season... with snow traction as good as a standard dedicated winter tire... or so the review says. what is you're experience with the contiextreeme contacts?

Im from Quebec city, Qc, Canada... and here we have a lot more snowfall than any state you want,,,, in here we know how to drive a car in winter season...first , like Daroshi tell us, put some good tires under your car.. you will be a lot more safer for everybody and for you... secondly, if you want to go fast with a AWD in poor condition.. when you drive by a deap snow ,,, dont push on the brake pedal like an unexperimented driver.. do it the other way... push alittle bit more on the gas and the car will automaticly take is position on the snow... if your pushing on the brake pedal.. you're dead!!
and finally, dont ever overvalue the traction of a AWD... in other words be more aware of your capacitys than you car.

Grelot
2000 A6 2.7T M6T

ORIGINAL: ppgoal

AWD does not = AW stop.

All cars have 4 wheel stop [sm=trust_me.gif]But I know what you mean.

I already know the answer to this I think... but I just want to hear it out of someone else's mouth.

My wife has an 03 A4 Avant (tip). She's under the impression that she can have better braking in snowy conditions if she uses the tip to downshift. I told her to use the brakes instead since they have ABS. If she 'over-downshifts' in snowy conditions, there's nothing to stop her from slipping... right? (Say she's going downhill on a curve) She's basically found the one way to render traction control and her ABS useless... right?

ORIGINAL: ungawa

I already know the answer to this I think... but I just want to hear it out of someone else's mouth.

My wife has an 03 A4 Avant (tip). She's under the impression that she can have better braking in snowy conditions if she uses the tip to downshift. I told her to use the brakes instead since they have ABS. If she 'over-downshifts' in snowy conditions, there's nothing to stop her from slipping... right? (Say she's going downhill on a curve) She's basically found the one way to render traction control and her ABS useless... right?






what your wife is doing is right... ABS and Traction control are still functional in Tip.

as Grelot (http://www.audiforums.com/showProfile.asp?memid=47974)said;" dont push on the brake pedal like an unexperimented driver.. do it the other way... push alittle bit more on the gas and the car will automaticly take is position on the snow... if your pushing on the brake pedal.. you're dead!! "

I totally agree with Grelot... as that has been my experience as well.

But let's say, just to illustrate the point... that she's going 60 and uses the tip to shift into 2nd on black ice. The traction control isn't going to be doing it's job... right? The tires are bound to lose it's grip on the road. It's not going to disengage the drivetrain and allow the wheels to speed up over the gearing of 2nd. AFAIK the traction control will only break wheels to keep them from spinning... not speed them up. (but then again I am new to Audis) And the ABS will only release the brakes if they're slipping.

Not new to snow driving. I've lived in northern New England my entire life. I know there are times to use gas.. and time for brakes. But if you're simply trying to slow down... saying "step on the gas" doesn't apply... "step on the gas" is for "oh crap I've already lost control of my car and I need to regain it".

ORIGINAL: ungawa

But let's say, just to illustrate the point... that she's going 60 and uses the tip to shift into 2nd on black ice. The traction control isn't going to be doing it's job... right? The tires are bound to lose it's grip on the road. It's not going to disengage the drivetrain and allow the wheels to speed up over the gearing of 2nd. AFAIK the traction control will only break wheels to keep them from spinning... not speed them up. (but then again I am new to Audis) And the ABS will only release the brakes if they're slipping.

Not new to snow driving. I've lived in northern New England my entire life. I know there are times to use gas.. and time for brakes. But if you're simply trying to slow down... saying "step on the gas" doesn't apply... "step on the gas" is for "oh crap I've already lost control of my car and I need to regain it".



Yes and no on using tip to slow down imho. Engine braking is good as long as you do not make an abrupt change. So if you stick it into 2nd while doing 60MPH, you will kick up the RPM fast, and your tire will loose tracking for sure on black ice or snow. Idea is to gradually slow down without changing the cars momentum drastically. In that case, in theory, it works the same with ABS as the engine braking right? Not exactly in my experienve. When the road is really slippery, I usually notice at least one wheel locking up while braking with ABS. Computer for some really can't really deal with the ice and lock up the wheel. You notice that typical ABS clicking noise and vibration on the brake. But in this situation, lets consider that I was driving about 20 mph on 4th gear. At 1200 rpm or so if not lower. I just down shift to 3rd. It gets me to 1500 rpm and applies enginer braking. Once I get down to 1000 rpm or so, I down shift again. and again and so on. During thing entire process, my wheels were always in contact with the pavement and never lost any traction, unlike using ABS.But once again, using this kind of downshift to slow down takes long time to stop.

As for the comment about what to do if you loose traction, my answer would be NOTHING. Just point the wheel straight, and do nothing. No brake, no gas. The car will automatically true itself out.

I am just saying this out of my experience and it may be wrong on some situation. But overall, you just need to slow down in the snow.

Use common sense and Quattro and ABS will take care of the rest... tip does help though. Using more compression on the engine is less strain on your pads and rubber. I was looking to get a set of Blizzaks but ran out of time because in Chicago its been
Quattro heaven! Got 2 more inches last night. But right now its -35 with the windchill. Im hoping for 1 more 6"+ blizzard before spring shines in.

ORIGINAL: hxgaser

Yes and no on using tip to slow down imho. Engine braking is good as long as you do not make an abrupt change. So if you stick it into 2nd while doing 60MPH, you will kick up the RPM fast, and your tire will loose tracking for sure on black ice or snow. Idea is to gradually slow down without changing the cars momentum drastically. In that case, in theory, it works the same with ABS as the engine braking right? Not exactly in my experienve. When the road is really slippery, I usually notice at least one wheel locking up while braking with ABS. Computer for some really can't really deal with the ice and lock up the wheel. You notice that typical ABS clicking noise and vibration on the brake. But in this situation, lets consider that I was driving about 20 mph on 4th gear. At 1200 rpm or so if not lower. I just down shift to 3rd. It gets me to 1500 rpm and applies enginer braking. Once I get down to 1000 rpm or so, I down shift again. and again and so on. During thing entire process, my wheels were always in contact with the pavement and never lost any traction, unlike using ABS.But once again, using this kind of downshift to slow down takes long time to stop.

As for the comment about what to do if you loose traction, my answer would be NOTHING. Just point the wheel straight, and do nothing. No brake, no gas. The car will automatically true itself out.

I am just saying this out of my experience and it may be wrong on some situation. But overall, you just need to slow down in the snow.


Gotcha. [sm=smiley20.gif] It's that abrupt change and more extreme rpms and speeds that I'm worried about her using the TIP in. A situation where you may be rounding a bend going too fast on ice... I'd rather take my chances with the brakes than try my hand at downshifting the tip which I have relatively little control over.

I think my initial question is answered though. The traction control won't save her if her crime is downshifting too aggressively on ice. The traction control only helps on acceleration. And ABS only helps on braking. There's no gizmo on the audi that keeps your wheels from sliding if you're downshifting too aggresively. So yea, her usage of her tip to slow herself is the only means by which one can defeat Audi's efforts to keep us safely on the road. Am I making any sense?

no, you don't make sense... you're wrong and your wife's right. suck it up...

Well, his wife is wrong and right. If you are going into a turn at 60mph and you just downshift the car hard and try to flat foot it through a curve that is snow and ice covered, you are asking for trouble.

The key to winter driving is being aware and taking it easy. Driving in Tip is a great way to maintain control as the car won't make any unexpected shifts that could cause you to lose control...

For instance, my friend was driving his automatic Camaro in cold and wet conditions. He wasn't doing anything crazy, he just accelerated normally to avoid a merging car. The trans kicked down a gear and the sudden shock on the tires kicked them loose and put him in a spin.

Using Tip to prevent that and using engine braking as you are approaching a turn or stop is far better than simply using your brakes to slow the car down in the snow. The Audi basically has three safety systems to keep you on the road that all work through the ABS and throttle.

1. Traction Control - This keeps your car going straight under acceleration and will use the ABS and throttle to keep everything in order.

2. ABS - Keeps your brakes from locking up under hard braking. However, if you bury the brakes in the snow/ice it will still take a long time to stop and your car will slide towards the end of the stop as the ABS is ineffective at very low speeds.

3. ESP (stability control) - This keeps your car from spinning out. When your blasting through a corner and the car begins to oversteer, this system will use the brakes to keep your car from spinning out. The problem is that it will also push your car to understeer, which may not be the best thing, for example on a tight off-ramp.

However, as most everyone has said, the key to everything is good tires. The better your tires grip, the less you will need any of the above safety nets to keep you on the road.

ORIGINAL: NJGOAT

Well, his wife is wrong and right. If you are going into a turn at 60mph and you just downshift the car hard and try to flat foot it through a curve that is snow and ice covered, you are asking for trouble.



That's all I'm saying. We live in northern Vermont and are regularly in this situation where the slightest interruption between wheel and snow means you're off the road.

With a standard.. at least you can ease yourself into alower gearbuy having your rpm up before letting out on the clutch. These are the first automatics I've owned in a long time.

Now my point regarding the traction control, abs, esp...
I'll try another example. (I know I should quit..) Say you're driving at 130mph across a frozen lake. (Been itching to try that) You downshift into 2nd. What happens? All four tires have lost their grip and you're spinning like a top across a lake going 125mph for a very long distance. This is the one situation where the Audi does not have a control over your traction. They've got traction under acceleration covered with the traction control... and traction during braking covered with ABS... but for someoneaggresively 'braking' via downshifting, the traction is not monitored or assisted.

Sorry.. really just an observation more than anything else. Wife and I were driving along on a snowy road, already pushing it around a corner that leaned to the outside and she decided to drop the Tip one gear and I almost crapped myself. It got me thinking.

Well, first off, the Tip won't let you drop it into second gear at 130mph, the over revving of the motor in that situation would pretty much grenade the engine and may take out some drivetrain while it's at it.

However, let's say you could do that. That is where the ESP (stability control) would step in. The shock of downshifting would break the tires loose. The car would begin to spin out. The ESP system would intervene and use the ABS to control the slide and right the car and keep it going straight.

The problem is that the system can be overwhelmed. Meaning, the force of what you are doingmay beso violent, the system cannot compensate fast enough. You would only get into that predicament under very unique conditions.

1+^^^HAHAHA If anyone is planning on shifting to from 120 to second gear:
1. Has NO common sense or knowledge on how the drivetrain functions. TIPs have trouble dropping 30 into 1st!
2. Has a car that tops out at 350mph.
3. Shouldn't be allowed to turn the ignition.

My 2¢ ;)

No car defies the laws of physics. Hypothetically, your car allowed to down shift to 2nd on 130 mph. Then what happens? Traction control? Nah... you just slide as your ESP light blinks to the high heavens until you hit a patch of rock, blow up an die. There is no electronics that would accomodate that kind of situation.

Also ESP is a funny animal. I spoke to a few Audi and BMW factory reps before. These are not your average sales person. They design these electronic stability systems. Anyways, some systems have built-in winter mode. Such as MB and Volvo and etc. Some don't. And do you know what they say? Contrary to the popular belief, if the condition gets really bad, they recommand that you actually turn off your ESP unless you have a spefic winter mode. Also if you have chains on, (sometimes even for a quattro, chains are required) they recommand that you turn off your ESP. Why? Because the system can't not deal with the wheels constantly spinning at different speed, and thinks that there is something wrong with your car.

ESP definitely helps, but it is not magic. Don't think that it will spin your car straight in all cases. It only helps to mitigate traction, and once you loose control of the car, ESP won't do jack.

Ok now we're way off my initial intent... but how is the ESP going to use the brakes to keep my car straight when the tires are still only spinning 40 mph (because they're in 2nd gear)and my car is still travelling 125 mph? See? (let's say it's a standard)

And we're talking purely hypethetical guys...I know enough about cars.. and plenty about snow driving. I'm just trying to illustrate the real world stuff I drive in all the time... 55 mph on snow.. in a slight bend.. I'd rather use the brakes than tap the Tip down a gear. I can control the brakes much better.

ORIGINAL: Teutonic2.7T
ORIGINAL: ungawa
I already know the answer to this I think... but I just want to hear it out of someone else's mouth.

My wife has an 03 A4 Avant (tip). She's under the impression that she can have better braking in snowy conditions if she uses the tip to downshift. I told her to use the brakes instead since they have ABS. If she 'over-downshifts' in snowy conditions, there's nothing to stop her from slipping... right? (Say she's going downhill on a curve) She's basically found the one way to render traction control and her ABS useless... right?

what your wife is doing is right... ABS and Traction control are still functional in Tip.

as Grelot (http://www.audiforums.com/showProfile.asp?memid=47974)said;" dont push on the brake pedal like an unexperimented driver.. do it the other way... push alittle bit more on the gas and the car will automaticly take is position on the snow... if your pushing on the brake pedal.. you're dead!! "

I totally agree with Grelot... as that has been my experience as well.


I completely disagree. you should not rely or even use downshifting to slow you down on ice because when using this it will slow you down with all 4 tires evenly at the same time which is not acceptable on icy road because your rear tires will lose traction before your front tires possibly causing you to lose control. This is the reason truckers do not use their JAKE brake on icy roads. While driving on icy roads it is far safer to threshold brake because60-90 percent of your stopping power is in your front wheels and your car is set up this way. Another thing....TC is only useful in accelerating, all it does is cause a rev limiter effect so yourwheels will not spin faster than you are traveling.I promise you it does nothing foryou in breaking situations, that is what ABSwas designedfor. So to answer your question your wifeis not right and willbe far safer not downshifting on icy roads. She should brake normally. Anybody that tells you different is wrong and should do a little more research themselves

ungawa, to make it simple, if you are on a giant sheet of ice spinning at 125....your Fooked...with a capital F. No system is going to be able to compensate for that situation. In normal driving, the system generally applies the brakes to one wheel to pull the car out of the spin. It would do the same thing on the hypothetical ice sheet, but with no traction on any tire, it would pretty much just sit there and blink at you.

The system saved my bacon big time in my JettaGLIwhen I was going about 120 down the highway racing with my friend (this was when I was a little dumber than I am now) and I went through an old construction zone with dirt and pebbles all over the highway. The rear of the car kicked out and the ESP systemlit up like a Christmas treeand with the rear of the car wagging back and forth like a fish, the ESP finally got it to settle down. Normally there would've been no way for me to react fast enough and I would've rolled the car.

Also, as someone mentioned ESP is not necessarily the best thing to have on in the snow. My old A4 didn't have it and it was a peach to drive and let Quattro do its job especially in deep snow and ice. Sometimes you end up fighting the system as it tries to "correct" what is otherwise the right move at the time.

ORIGINAL: NJGOAT

ungawa, to make it simple, if you are on a giant sheet of ice spinning at 125....your Fooked...with a capital F. No system is going to be able to compensate for that situation. In normal driving, the system generally applies the brakes to one wheel to pull the car out of the spin. It would do the same thing on the hypothetical ice sheet, but with no traction on any tire, it would pretty much just sit there and blink at you.

The system saved my bacon big time in my JettaGLIwhen I was going about 120 down the highway racing with my friend (this was when I was a little dumber than I am now) and I went through an old construction zone with dirt and pebbles all over the highway. The rear of the car kicked out and the ESP systemlit up like a Christmas treeand with the rear of the car wagging back and forth like a fish, the ESP finally got it to settle down. Normally there would've been no way for me to react fast enough and I would've rolled the car.

Also, as someone mentioned ESP is not necessarily the best thing to have on in the snow. My old A4 didn't have it and it was a peach to drive and let Quattro do its job especially in deep snow and ice. Sometimes you end up fighting the system as it tries to "correct" what is otherwise the right move at the time.

You are confusing braking with accelerating or RACING. Of course it helped you out in that situation you werentDOWNSHIFTING through a corner on icy roads. It wouldnt have done a thing for youif your were on an icy corner, had recently downshifted and lost control

I think you are confusing what ESP is. Just because Audi tied the TRACTION CONTROL and STABILITY CONTROL into the same button, does not mean that they don't both do different things. The traction control keeps my tires from spinning when I accelerate. Stability control keeps the car from spinning out. They are both turned on/off with the ESP button.

Stability control would help me on the icy road even if I am downshifting and braking. I was trying to illustrate how the system works outside of the context of our icy road/lake scenrio. I am not confusing braking with acceleration. ESP uses a gyro to sense the cars side to side motion. When it picks up that the car is going into oversteer or about to spin out, it applies the ABS system to regain control of the car. The system works regardless of which pedal you are pushing.

You could be accelerating hard and throw the car into a turn and it would try to right the car.

You could be braking hard into a turn and it would try to right the car.

You could just be coasting into a turn and it would try to right the car.

In the icy corner, it would try to keep the car from spinning out, how succesful it would be would depend on how much grip the tires have at that moment.

I am aware of what ESP is....I dont believe some others knoweverything about it (hint...hint).
How can a system designed to use breaking to control a car, stop the car from going into a skid when it's the enginerestricting the tires from rolling at the current speed?

ORIGINAL: ungawa

...but how is the ESP going to use the brakes to keep my car straight when the tires are still only spinning 40 mph (because they're in 2nd gear)and my car is still travelling 125 mph? See? (let's say it's a standard)...



Well, magic. Actually the specific example (stopping at 120 mph with spin out) will not work but hypothetically it is done with ABS.It is the beauty of 4 channel ABS and ESP. So lets say you are making a swift left turn on a slippery surface. Traction gets lost. Car goes forward while the steering is pointed to the left. Computer senses that you want to go left based on yaw sensors, and notices that your front wheels are loose. It applies brake to inside (Left) tiresand tries to send more torque to the outer wheels as well as rear wheel where there is traction.Because each channel of the brake system is individually controllable, computer can stop one wheel at a time if needed. This is what ESP does. And in conjunction with the quattro system, which sends torque via torsen differential with electric differential lock (depending on the year and model), it further enhances the stability. Both ESP and quattro system works in acceleration and deceleration, but they are not to same.

You can overcram your brain with worthless info found here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_%28all_wheel_drive_system%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Stability_Control

Different versions of quattro system use differentset ups though. Anyways, this is getting very heated.

Yes it will monitor engine drag, but it will not be able to monitor it if the engine caused the wheels to skid straight

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/esp.html

this is a site on the history and what that system monitors, and skidding due to engine breaking is not one of them

ORIGINAL: ungawa

Ok now we're way off my initial intent... but how is the ESP going to use the brakes to keep my car straight when the tires are still only spinning 40 mph (because they're in 2nd gear)and my car is still travelling 125 mph? See? (let's say it's a standard)

And we're talking purely hypethetical guys...I know enough about cars.. and plenty about snow driving. I'm just trying to illustrate the real world stuff I drive in all the time... 55 mph on snow.. in a slight bend.. I'd rather use the brakes than tap the Tip down a gear. I can control the brakes much better.


I have to chime in here.

55 mph on snow.. in a slight bend... -If you sense that you are moving too fast and you are already into the turn your best hopes are to let off the accelerator and steer into the curve without making any jerky motions. If you are already into the curve and then "tap" the brakes, that sudden jerk (on snow/ice) could break the tires free and you'd be more likely to slide off the road. The same applies to downshifting in the middle of the curve as well. Just keep in mind all that weight shifting back and forth and how much traction you really have. If you are already into the curve there isn't a whole lot you can do.

Now, if there is no way you're going to make the corner and it is a dire situation I say foot to brake hard and dump the parking brake. Parking brake?? That's absurd! Not really... if you are going THAT fast and lose control in the corner what is to say your foot won't come free from the brake pedal. We all know about the Department of Redundancy Department, right?

Agree or disagree, that is what I would do.

Of course, all this depends on the situation. Speed, weight of vehicle, sharp curve, slight curve, straight away or s-curve after the initial curve, plowed snow, fresh powder, ice, etc, etc. There are many variables.

ORIGINAL: NJGOAT

ungawa, to make it simple, if you are on a giant sheet of ice spinning at 125....your Fooked...with a capital F. No system is going to be able to compensate for that situation. In normal driving, the system generally applies the brakes to one wheel to pull the car out of the spin. It would do the same thing on the hypothetical ice sheet, but with no traction on any tire, it would pretty much just sit there and blink at you.

Well with all due respect.. that is a bit different from what you said earlier... and the reason I continued my little debate. You said that the ESP would be able to (or have a slight chance) to keep the car straight. But while in gear and restricted by the engine, there would beno hope. In a scaled down - less dramatic manner, this is the same situation my wife puts herself into by using the tip to slow herself down in touchy situations. The... negative slip?.. in this situation was what I was curious about. When the engine is the force restricting the tires from having a good grip on the road, the esp, traction control, and abs wouldn't seemable to do anything. I was just pointing out that this is the one situation I can think of that the audi hasn't mastered. I'm not complaining! I friggin love these things! Audi driver for life here.

Thanks HSgasser for the links. I'll check those out. Still got lots to learn here.

Thanks richrich for seeing a bit to what I'm getting at. =)

Khardysius I agree.. Gentle movements keep you on the road. The last time I jerked the steering wheel on a snowy road, I ended up right in a snowbank. That was about 16 years ago and Ican honestly say I haven't lost controlof a car since. *knock knock* And yes, every situation is different.. there's no catch-all.

Hope I didn't get off to a rocky start here. [sm=chattypair.gif]

I drive real fast with the esp off in the snow and e-brake into all my turns >:(

Sorry guys, just trying to break the tension here! Good read

richrich, you are very right that if I am driving straight down the road and I downshift the car and begin to skid forward, the traction control function of ESP will not kick in to save me and as long as I keep skidding straight, nothing would happen. However, if the downshifting causes my car to SKID RIGHT OR LEFT, aka step out of line, ESP will activate and straighten out the car.

The discussion here (as far as I interpreted it) was never about whether ESP would preventthe carfrom skidding forward under engine braking. To me the post that got all this started was asking about lateral motion. To me the word "skid" referred to the car sliding sideways. I want to turn right, but my car slides left. In that case ESP would work to right the car. It could easily use the brakes to slow one wheel more than the other wheels (to straighten the car out) regardless of the force of the engine braking. This is what hxgaser described so well in his post.

From the link that richrich posted http://www.whnet.com/4x4/esp.html:

"ESP works in all regimes like: acceleration, coasting, light braking, hard braking, engine drag (just a FYI...engine drag and engine braking are the same thing) and load shift and enhances vehicle stability even during extreme steering maneuvers (panic reactions)."

So, regardless of the way the skidding (side to side)is caused, the ESP system will work to pull the car back into the intended path.

ungawa, I don't think that I ever changed my answer to your question. What I was trying to get at is that on our hypothetical ice sheet travelling at 125mph, when we force the downshift, the car would most likely spin out like a topESP WOULD kick into try and right the car and stop the spin. If any of the tires had any amount of traction, it may actually prevent you from spinning out. My second (seemingly contradictory) post was more about being humorous in what would happen if you were actually spinning out on an ice sheet going 125mph....I don't think anything would stop you.

I hate having these conversations online as it is so hard to illustrate what you are talking about.:eek:

personally, when i bought my A6 with quattro, i was thinking it would be like my girlfriends jeep on 4X4, or better than my DeVille at least.... to my surprise it wasnt.

I dont know if its due to the A6 being lighter in weight, but this thing fishtails like a mofo when there is only a little bit of snow on the ground... granted its better than a RWD car only, but still i was shocked to fishtail.

I then went to an empty parking lot, and was amazed at how easy it was to do donoughts in that car (granted i had a blast doing it).My other car which is front wheel drive cant, e DeVille is MUCH heavier, but i still thought the Audi would be better in snow.

NJGOAT, I have to agree with you on all your points.
From my current experience with the Chicago snow this week, i think ESP is a better system for driving in most bad whether conditions.

Well I lost control on I-75N up in Toledo, OH due to black ice/rain in my old 92' Lexus es300 (I have driven up there all the times in all seasons)... After that I bought this Audi and what sold me was the conering ability in the snow displayed by the Audi salesman. But I do understand AWD, ESP, etc... Nothing can save your A$$ when your car doesn't have traction.

ORIGINAL: NJGOAT
I hate having these conversations online as it is so hard to illustrate what you are talking about.:eek:


I agree. I'm not new to forums so it takes quite a bit before I actually get upset about it all.

I'm still reading up on some of the finer points of ESP and quattro etc..

Very interesting discussion, I’d like to introduce a recent driving experience and ask for thoughts. I routinely drive my 2003 A-4 on I-80 through the Sierras between San Francisco and Reno. I’ve made the trip dozens of times this winter in every road condition imaginable without the least concern for traction loss or skid. For better or worse, I drive in tip mode, stay off the brakes, “downshift� to maintain desired speed. I’ve never once slipped or skid.

Last night I passed chain control expecting a routine drive of some 40 – 50 miles thru heavy snow accumulation from previous 24 hours. I started uphill at 30 – 35MPH behind an SUV when the tail of my car abruptly kicked out to the left, pitching the vehicle nearly sideways to the direction of travel. I let off the gas, turned into the direction of skid (uphill), ESP illuminated, the car corrected. ESP light turned off. I thought this was a one-off and continued as usual. No other traffic at the time (4x4, AWD, 2WD w/ chains) was having problems with the conditions; most traveling 40 – 45MPH, many faster.

Long story short, at speeds over approx 25MPH the ESP repeatedly illuminated and the rear of the car would start to kick out to the left, driver’s side. I had the distinct impression as I was driving that the nose of the car appeared to be pulled slightly to the right, as if the wheel alignment was off. When hitting heavy bumps, even at 20MPH, the ESP illuminated and the car felt as though the tail was going to kick out to the left. I considered turning off the ESP, thinking it was somehow causing the problems.

Spent the better part of 50 miles behind a truck doing 20MPH or less. Once back on clear pavement, no more problems. Had tires checked today, reasonable tread (about 10K to go) and properly inflated; I’ve rotated ‘em about every 5k for the past 30K; very even wear.

Thoughts or comments would be appreciated.