This code will give 20% off on all kit orders. bddb4b This coupon will be good for the next 9 days. If someone needs longer have them email me DevilsOwn of his contact us page to make arrangements. Everyone is going to want the 2.5 Bar kit. If you are wanting nozzles other than DO3 and DO5 please put in the notes and we will exchange for you. Dual nozzle guys probley will want the 2 and 5 or 2 and 4 and the signal nozzle guys if they are low modded will use the do3 and the higher hp guys will run the do5 Everyone will need the 2.5 bar controller. http://www.alcohol-injection.com/water-injection-kits-1/universal-19/universal-stage-2-12.html dual nozzle upgrade http://www.alcohol-injection.com/upgrade-45/dual-nozzle-upgrade-200.html

What is the difference between the single or dual nozzle, besides the obvious nozzle #?

Im in, there is info like this in the BT and HP thread sticky (http://www.audiforums.com/m_823224/mpage_1/tm.htm#824965). For more info, we can get into that here.

You know i want in!

Imdown. I dont check the forums much so when it comes time to order would you mind tossing me a email at oorsmoo@yahoo.com thanks

will do trust me guys i wanna get at least 20-25 people and the pricing will be very low...and as i stated above the install is about 2hrs and one hr of tuning....installation can be done with simple tools

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

....and one hr of tuning


That is unless you are Chris (nurotic, speaking of, WHERE IS HIS ASS!!!) and dont get enough cc from his nozzles and runs his pump to low. Then it takes you much longer :D

Everyone needs to go to usrallyteam.com and download the program for nozzle sizing.

im in for the dual[sm=smiley20.gif]

due to price protection policies with other companies i can't disclose info on prices...email or pm ONLY...i will however be able to say things like...."we need x amount of people to get the better deal" goal is for 20-25 either single or dual nozzle..doesnt matter. again please pm or email for all questions and interests

I'm down. How long will it take? I need to wait two weeks before I can pay, because I have bills out of the yin-yang that need to be paid, but I definitely don't wanna miss out on this deal!

I'm in def. Could you pm me that price? How would one go about tuning if we don't have a vagcom? And would this work w/ say revo or unitronics? Would the car automaticlly adjust if one had the upgraded software?

You can get a race file and run more meth than 50/50, like 70/30. Even without a vagcom you will have no timing pull and lower iat's. Wont give as big of gains, but will improve cooling greatly.

Count me in for the Stage 2 (dual nozzle) I was actually about to order one off there website so savin some moneys never hurts

ok...our motronic ECU are some of the most advanced ECUs in the market...i';m not allowed to say who...but a person dynoed his car running advanced timing(agressive) and high boost...he wanted to see what would happen if he ran out of water/meth....the car went into limp mode instantly....the ecu automatically adusted and pulled timing and boost....the ecu reacts very very fast...cant remember the exact figures...some high number per combustion cycle....just an FYI

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

ok...our motronic ECU are some of the most advanced ECUs in the market...i';m not allowed to say who...but a person dynoed his car running advanced timing(agressive) and high boost...he wanted to see what would happen if he ran out of water/meth....the car went into limp mode instantly....the ecu automatically adusted and pulled timing and boost....the ecu reacts very very fast...cant remember the exact figures...some high number per combustion cycle....just an FYI


are you serious? I call BS. the ecu will not react fast enough when you are running more boost and more timing to stop the engine from blowing, especially on nDBW cars since the ECU doesnt compensate for much. the only way to get this effect is to get the warning module which is an additional $100. when i was getting my car tuned at USRT on the dyno and my meth all leaked out of the washer fluid tank and the car almost blew because of it, the ecu did nothing to pull anything back

First i think you mean DBC and second, it is true (on DBW for sure). The timing will be pulled back instantly and with the increase in iat's will set off limp. Its not hard to wire in the low level light or even use the ww res as the tank to prevent this. And then if it does, its the owners own stupidity that it happened. Not to mention all you really have to do is stop by the nearest gas station and pour in some ww fluid since its both distilled water and meth

Im in i was about to buy my kit today, but i will wait for this one to go through instead. Please pm me the price and when you expect to actually order them, so i can know when i may be expecting it to arrive, thanks.

I've been making tap handles out of copper tubing at work. Made me think of old moonshine stills, who wants to start brewing methanol?

Anyway, prolly interested... duel setup.

i will reply all pm and email as soon as i get the final prices...

thanks cause im ready to order when you give the word.

ok...you guys have two options....i;ll let you pick.....first option is to go with devils own...this kit will cost 270 plus shipping($13 max)...now this kit for 270 includes enough to run single nozzle of your choice size..////now for dual nozzle it will be 290 plus shipping($13 max) nozzles of your choice again....2nd option is to go with snow performance....single nozzle kit will cost 400 shipped.. in all honesty the devils own kit is identical...i just got off the phone with the owner and they actually are better IMO like the nozzles are o ring sealed for no possible leaks of any kind ....trust me guys this deal will not be around again. i;ve been fighting to get the best deal and the snow performance is way too much. the group by will most likely end this month...March 31st gotta have all orders in.

Im in as you allready know got the clutch on power steering is acting up not ill screw with it tommorrow i thinkits low fluid or some stupid shit...

and to make it more clear for some...lol i know its confusing when reading from the sites....both stage 2 kits come with two nozzles BUT they dont come with the extra mounting and solenoid....so the 290 price is for running dual nozzles....snow performance=460

yeah, im dumb.

its ok your not dumb matt....they word it like that on purpose

im in for the devils own dual nozel, pm me for the details on how to put in my order.

How much would a dual nozzle devil's kit be normally?

i want w/m, but i gotta get a tv first........ just spent too much dang money


maybe the 26th person will be free and i can be 26th

Oh I AM SO Getting this!!!!!!

Put me down for the dual nozzle kit! Please PM me price and all that stuff as well ASAP.

Josh

ORIGINAL: Murderface

How much would a dual nozzle devil's kit be normally?


looks like $330.

^^^no its more like 360 to run dual nozzle then extra shipping....the savings on this group buy are around 80 in savings

Hey,
I am actually just going to get the single nozzle system... NOT the dual nozzle.

Josh

Josh, i dont even think you could really run a single with decent results. You actually need a quad with that 2.7T ;)

What??? Really??? hmm.... I have seen guys who put it right in front of the TB with the nozzle pointing towards it. Will that not work?

Josh

It will, but you wont get any real cooling from it. The further away from the TB, the better it cools the iat's and the closer to the TB the more knock protection. If you did a dual, you can split the spray further back on each side to get more cooling also. If you had a i guess triple instead, you can have one by the TB and have 2 more just past each smic so you can gain tons of cooling w/o sacrafising any knock protection. You dont have to go this route, but 2 would be better for you and 3 would be ideal.

Im for 100% sure in on the dual nozzle kit you got my number... let me know what i gotta do and who to pay thanks for organizing this!

all please look at top thread ;)

Im definitely down for this dual. Send a pm

if your for sure down for a kit post on the other list not here that way its organized for andrew....if your not sure dont post
http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_68

if everyone could please post your order on the thread called water.meth list thanks again its much easier on me....

Set up a group buy on meth next. I found an ebay auction for a 55 gallon of 99.something percent pure methanol, buy it now of $200. We'll all pitch in, you measure it out into smaller bottles and send it out, sound like a deal? ; )

or we can make our own for cheap....;)

Will this benefit me without a BT? I have just a Revo Tune, 42DD DP, Blueflame Exhaust, Boost Machine, Mofo and a useless open air intake.
I know it cools the intake charge but would I loose the Windshieldwasher tank in order to run this mod? Sorry for the dumb questions but I never
had a Water/Meth injection unit and I am not sure if I would even gain any performance with my present set up.
Thank for any advice as usual ;)

Will this benefit me without a BT?

Sure will! The cooler intake charge is gonna give you the ability to make more power with a stock turbo, AND as an added bonus, the injected water steam cleans your engine. It'll knock all the carbon deposits off the piston/valves and give you a clean running engine.

a stock turbo is maxed outon power at 22-24psi and the w/m lets you increase timing to increase the power and keep hp up in higher rpms.

As for fluid, you can use ww fluid (its 25-40% meth depending on brand) but the dye may clog the nozzles over time. Not hard to clean if you choose this method. Or you can also go to autozone and get a few bottles of Heet, which is basically 95% meth and mix it with distilled water. I believe you can also get meth from paint stores in large amounts.

http://www.brasslite.com/SiteImages/Misc/HEET.jpg

If I get meth from a paint store they will probably report me to the FBI for running a meth lab [8D] How difficult is one of those
kits to install? And will you loose the use of your windshield washer resevoir to the meth thingy?

no you wont loosw the winshield wiper fluid you have the option to run it via that or run a seperate tank im running a sererate tank right behind the battery most likely

we have around 12 people right now...13 more to go;)

Where else are you advertising this?

just this forum in the A4 sections and should prolly post on VW vortex...i dont wanna step on toes tho i think 25 people is do-able just from this forum....after a few more days if we dont have around 18-20 then i';ll post on VWvortex.com but feel free to send people over here if you know anyone....i will try to get better pricing if we shoot over 25.

Good deal, I'll mention it to a few people.

still need 12 people

i gotta a buddy with a vette ( my boss) its twin turbo could he get in on this?

anybody just need to hit 25 kits...doesnt matter if they are single or dual nozzle kits

keep em coming

bump it up

Maybe try a few different forums...

I am going to post this on two of my local forums if thats cool.

Josh

thats fine with me....dosnt matter who buys the kits..i was just trying to hook up people on this forum first..since thats where i come from...lol but ya i posted on vw vortex gonna post on audiworld.com

BUMP this to the top c'mon people 20 WHP for under 300 thats a deal !!!!!!!!

I have no idea what this mod is or what it will do for my car or how it benefits me. Therefore i'm not in.

^lmao hey hows the diode you get the dv ftom forge yet my car is up and running =)

Agnt008 (http://www.audiforums.com/showProfile.asp?memid=38111)
are you being serious? lol should i post those for you?

lol he needs a turbo inlet hose before he goes meth injected he doesnt like the collapsed hose feeling

I'm in :D....

PM sent.

ORIGINAL: Red_sapphire89

lol he needs a turbo inlet hose before he goes meth injected he doesnt like the collapsed hose feeling


*confused* The 180 has a cast tip, they dont collapse like a 225. Dont know why he needs to replace it. [>:]

If you want real info on wmi, see the BT and HP sticky. Its near the bottom ;)

i would be interested on a dual nozzle setup, send me an email with some details at ghost6303 [at] hotmail [dot] com

This code will give 20% off on all kit orders. bddb4b This coupon will be good for the next 9 days. If someone needs longer have them email me DevilsOwn of his contact us page to make arrangements. Everyone is going to want the 2.5 Bar kit. If you are wanting nozzles other than DO3 and DO5 please put in the notes and we will exchange for you. Dual nozzle guys probley will want the 2 and 5 or 2 and 4 and the signal nozzle guys if they are low modded will use the do3 and the higher hp guys will run the do5 Everyone will need the 2.5 bar controller. http://www.alcohol-injection.com/water-injection-kits-1/universal-19/universal-stage-2-12.html dual nozzle upgrade http://www.alcohol-injection.com/upgrade-45/dual-nozzle-upgrade-200.html

After reading the description of the Stage 2 (Progressive) kit, I changed my order to that one. That truly does seem the best way to go. I initially wanted the Stage 1 because of my experience with Aquamist. My Aquamist kit is about 7 years old and had an older, piston-style pump. Aquamist's solution for progressive water injection was to use an expensive High Speed Valve (HSV) that was triggered by the fuel injector. I never saw an improvement in performance and didn't think Stage 2 was worth the extra bucks. However, talking to Chance and reading the description on Devil's Own website, I now understand it operates differently and I expect it to show marked improvement over the simple on/off method of Stage 1.

My question now is does anyone have a good recommended place for the pump?

I'm down to buy the dual kit I posted it in the a4forum and got no reply e-mail mewhen it's ondiverrhettnelson@yahoo.com
Thanks

Just ordered my kit, nice about $90.00 off!! MeanAudi just wanted to say thanks for the hard work in setting this up, kudos!

Hopefully I ordered what I needed. I just go the stage 2 with the 2.5 controller, a 2qrt tank (don't know where it is gonna fit), float switch, dual nozzle kit and some w/m mix. I made a comment on the order asking to verify the nozzle size for my app. From your last post, MeanAudi, you stated get a 2 and 5 or 2 and 4. Youare talking about the part number's for the nozzlescorrect, as in D02 and D05?

ya those are part numbers..you shoudld be good....im not sure if im gonna use a 1 and a 3 or the 2 and a 4....hmm not sure yet

ahhhhh im so torn as to whether or not i want to do this

Get the Stage 1. It comes to $176 plus shipping. Not too bad if you don't want to lay out the cash up front. You can always upgrade to the progressive controller later.

u will regret the 90 dollars in savings

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

u will regret the 90 dollars in savings


Maybe, but if the price for the Stage 2 keeps anyone from getting this kit, then the savings isn't worth it.

^^lol well i just hope they realize this wont happen again...its a one time deal.

Ok, just bought mine... now I need to figure out how to tune and install this thing! HAHA

Josh

Got my kit today! :D Looks like my weekend is planned.

I plan on using my washer tank. You access it by removing the driver's side wheel and wheel housing liner. Once that is off, I'll check to see if there is someplace to mount the pump. I'll try to remember to take pics.

Ok i just wanna know what kind of actual "real" gains in HP this will ad? I know it will increase the IAT's and I can raise the boost and it will clean my engine and what not, but how bout gains in power? Any real numbers?

I believe average is 20-30 hp... I think... thats what I am hoping. And thats with a good tune for it.

josh

What kind of tuning? Using what program

unisettings or lemmiwinks

I have Revo and you can adjust the timing and boost with their SPS 3. I know it doesn't have all the same stuff to play around with like these other programs but that is what I plan on using. Any others on here do this yet? I haven't gotten around to getting a Ross-tech cable yet.

I will let you know as soon as I get my kit and play with it. I will be using Lemmiwinks.

Josh

I finally ORDERED my kit today. Used the boss' credit card, I have piles of cash but my bank situation is still FUBAR... : (

Still trying to find a reasonably priced methanol safe epoxy so I can build my own tank. Maybe Ill just do it out of stainless....

Why not just use the windshield washer fluid tank?

Josh

Because I wanna use my washer tank for washer fluid, and a WMI tank, for WMI. I find myself (especially in winter) always running low on washer fluid, I'd rather have the assurance that my wild windshield washing isn't gonna put me on the side of the road.

Doesn't hurt that I can weld aluminum and stainless, and I have a shitload of aluminum and stainless at my disposal. Vs, paying money for a tank, or constantly draining a shared tank, seems like a fairly smart decision.

The real challenge to all this is WHERE to mount stuff. I explored a little tonight and have probably settled on where to mount the pump. I keep a gallon of washer fluid in the car anyway, so I'll use the washer tank. Here are some preliminary pics. I didn't get all the way there yet because I have to go to work tomorrow and didn't want to be up till midnight. However, come Saturday, I'm gonna have some fun.


Washer Tank with Wheel Liner Removed
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300002.jpg

Mounting Location for Pump with Airbox Removed
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300003.jpg

Another view of the Pump Location
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300005.jpg

Water Line inside Wheel Well to Engine Compartment and Pump
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300006.jpg

Water Line running to Washer Tank
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300007.jpg

Modified Airbox to make room for the Pump
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300009.jpg

Side View of Airbox
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300010.jpg

View of Pump with Airbox Installed
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300008.jpg

This is about the only place to mount the pump. If anyone has a better location, please post it up. As you know, it is really tight in our engine compartment. I have no idea where you'd mount a separate tank. I'll post more pics as I make progress.

fix please^^

Fixed

OK, which is the signal wire on our MAP that I need to tap?

The black one, wire 5 for the maf

Purple and grey for map

ORIGINAL: cincyTT

The black one, wire 5 for the maf

Purple and grey for map


Excellent! Great!Thanks!

I had that confirmed by Chance of Devil's Own. I sent him the wiring diagram for my Bentley CD.

Here are some more pics. Almost done.

Pump Mounted
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300011.jpg

Mounting Screws Coming Through
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300012.jpg


Mounting Screws Trimmed
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300013.jpg

Water Feed Line into Washer Tank. (Instead of using the tap that came with the kit, I just drilled a 1/4" hole in the top of the tank and ran the water line down to the bottom.)
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300014.jpg

Nozzle installed with Throttle Flange
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300015.jpg

Water Line to the Nozzle
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300016.jpg

MAP Connector. (The Purple/Gray wire is in position 4; all the way to the right.)
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300017.jpg

Back together
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300018.jpg

Up close
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300019.jpg

Next: Hooking up the controller and I done!

is that the TB plate from USRT?

Believe it is, he mentioned it in an earlier post.

ORIGINAL: Mobius97

is that the TB plate from USRT?



Yep.

I'm done and took her for a test drive. I really feel the pull under full boost in higher gears. I want to adjust the timing but I recently upgraded my VAG-COM cable from serial to USB. But my Lemmiwinks program is looking for a serial port (I think). How do you use it with USB?

I also have APRTune, but it doesn't seem to let me change values. Does it only work with APR software?

TIA

good deal more people HAVE TO ORDER!!! come on guys buy this kit and you wont regret buying it now for the savings you get...

OK. Used Unisettings to set the timing ahead 1.5 degrees (starting out easy). I'm using the 3 gal/hr nozzle. Starts at 7 psi and full at 14 psi.

Awesome!

so you went with the D03 at the tb?> what do u run after intercooler? your dual nozzle correct? i was gonna go either D01 or D02 at the TB and a D04 after intercooler before the map sensor

No, single nozzle. I've had too much bad experience with failed throttle bodies when running water before them.

Final pics.

Placed the controller in the little storage area under the ash tray.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300022.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300023.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300020.jpg

looks good...cant wait to install mine....after i get this damn timing belt on

How big is that controller in relation to the radio/can the controls be remounted ona DIN sizedaluminum plate?

Since I never change my radio station, I was thinking of moving the radio to the cd changer location, and using the radio location for the controller, and eventually a gauge.

i doubt it...its like 1in by 2.4 in

ORIGINAL: achTTung

How big is that controller in relation to the radio...

Pretty small. I'd leave your radio alone. I drilled a hole in the back of the storage area for the wires.

The radio is moving regardless of the water/meth. I've intended on using that area for gauges anyway, now I'll probably fit the w/m controls to one side, with enough room for 1-2 gauges hopefully. My buddies Subie has a little flip up cover on the dash kinda like the TT, but not for the radio, didn't realize, buthe had the same idea, he's got 2 gauges, and 3 LED's for his aquamist setup.

for those looking to save some money jsut get the single nozzle and you will get great gains....also people running dual nozzles make sure u place them after your DV relocation kits if you have them....you dont want water/meth in your turbo....

UPDATE FOR THOSE WHO DON'T READ THE WHOLE THREAD...

The problem I describe below was indeed caused by debris in the check valve and not a too big nozzle! Soldering the controller wire to the MAP sensor wire is highly recommended. Our MAP wires are too thin to get a reliable connection using the Posi-Lock Connectors supplied with the kit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have some experiences (lessons learned) that I will share with folks. First of all, Devil's Own has a pretty good tech forum (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/) to help with install and trouble shooting problems. You can read about my problems in detail here (http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/serious-misfires-other-problems-1396.html), but let me summarize.

I was having some serious misfires, idling, and oxygen sensor problems. Without going into a lot of detail, the symptoms were rough idling, DTCs (due to misfires and O2 sensor error), excessive water/meth consumption. The problems can be boiled down (in order of cause) to debris in the check valve that kept it from checking the flow under vacuum; the connection to the MAP sensor wire really needs a good connection (i.e., solder it); and spraying too soon or using too big a nozzle after the throttle body. My solution was to clean out the check valve (and make sure everything is tight); solder the green controller wire to the MAP sensor wire; and set my trigger points higher while I wait for a smaller nozzle.

I may find that I don't need a smaller nozzle, but I already ordered it (2 gph) before finding the check valve problem.

My kit came in the mail today and hopefully I will be installing it this weekend when I get back in town. I have yet to run down to my local shop to pick up the SPS-3 for Revo. I am even debating getting this tho over the Ross-tech cable. My question is if I install this will I really see any gains without being ableto change my settings? No need in installing it yet if I can't.

You will see gains from the cooling and get back any timing you are pulling

Thanks man, I was just reading over the manual for the SPS 3. I am going to pick up the Ross-Tech cable/software so that I can do this correctly and log things. Even Revo is stating to do this when messing with the settings. My buddy owns a tuning shop and he runs W/M in his 478Hp Civic. He is knows his stuff but he mainly deals with Japanese cars. So he will be helping me install the kit for food and beer. I think I will place my order for the cable tomorrow.
There are several choices but it lookslike the USB one would be my best bet. Do I need to pay extra for the vagcom software or does a license come with it? It looks like you can just DL it from their site.

Then I will go ahead and grab the SPS 3 for switching on the fly.

If you get the cable, you dont need the SPS, just use unisettings. If you friend knows how to read timing advance and pull, he will be a great help in running graphs and tunning.

Now this is where I get a little confused with W/M (i am a compete newb to this W/M and reading as much as I can when the time allows). Say I don't get the SPS and just use unisettings. When I am not running W/M (say I run out) will the ECU adapt and go to safe settings since I can't adjust them on the fly? What I was thinking with the SPS...if this happened I could easily pull over and switch to stock or 93 oct settings.

You can use your ww res for a low level idicator or just fill it up every so often. But if you happened to run out, the ecu will pull the timing advance back to a safe amount

I'm convinced now that the primary cause (maybe the only cause) of my problems was the debris in the check valve. Cars running great now. Now, I'll start the tuning again.

Just wondering if anyone else is going to be mounting there controller inside the ash tray I plan on mounting mine inside there with an on/off button for it

Well, I set the timing ahead 1.5 degrees, am using the 3 gph nozzle, trigger on at 10 psi and full at 17 psi. No DTCs, no problems, great response, very quick(er). This is an awesome kit, especially for the price.

Don't know if the GB is still going on. Chance said they may be moving into a new building next week and may be a little busy. If anyone is on the fence over this kit, get off and buy this thing now!

hmmm only 1.5 advanced timing?> have you tried any more like amybe 4-5 degrees?

I'm taking it slow for now. I don't know what should be a "safe" range. I will incrementally move it up until I'm comfortable.

What are other people doing?

you keep adding timing till you start seeing timing pull. Some say 4 is the max and some say 6* pull is the max. I would be conservative and stay with the 0-4* of timing pull

With Unisetting (or other programs) timing increases by .75 degrees at a time. So, my next increase will be 2.25, then 3, then 3.75.

Not sure if you are getting what im saying. But ill post this to help all that are going to do this for the first time.

a chart i found in a quich search...

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z15/NOLA_VDubber/Timing.jpg

IAT = intake air temps
BTDC = before top dead centeraka timing advance
CF 1-4 = timing pull in cyl 1-4.

As you can see in the graph, the timing starts of high and then drops down to spool the turbo better and then climbs back up after the psi peaks. The higher timing after the turbo starts to fade is what keeps the power to redline on a stock turbo.

In this chart, you can see he is running w/m and that his iat's dont really increase when injected. You can also see he is also about maxed at his 4.25* timing advance since he is pulling 4* of timing in cyl #3. He could add another .75 if timing pull doenst go much higher. He may also need a slightly more w/m also.

Cool! Which block measures pull? I know Block 026 measures knock sensor voltage, but I don't think that's the one to use. I know there's another for timing.

BTW, I just took the car for a test drive after increasing timing to 2.25 degrees. Pretty nice. Like being chipped for the first time all over again (or close to it)!

i cant wait fo mine as long as it feels like when i get chipped i will be very happy and plus all the nice cleaning its doing to my engine combustion chambers....yaya

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

i cant wait fo mine as long as it feels like when i get chipped i will be very happy and plus all the nice cleaning its doing to my engine combustion chambers....yaya


Don't ever expect your pistons to be sparkling. I believe it may remove some of the carbon build up, but water is not going to "steam clean" the inside of your engine. Here's the top of some pistons that had water injection (and also some valve contact unrelated to the water injection).

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/JettaRed/Piston4.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/JettaRed/Piston1.jpg

^ after seeing my valves, i need to have that crap cleaned out also. There is a bunch of crap on them i will mostly credit the pcv system.

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

Cool! Which block measures pull? I know Block 026 measures knock sensor voltage, but I don't think that's the one to use. I know there's another for timing.

BTW, I just took the car for a test drive after increasing timing to 2.25 degrees. Pretty nice. Like being chipped for the first time all over again (or close to it)!


I dont know the block numbers. Chris (nur0tic) knows.

hmmm but i have seen what the pistions look like after 50k miles and then watermeth the last 5k miles....so i dont know what the hell went on with the pics above but most pistions dont look that way....mine look almost brand new without water/meth....thats not normal wear and tear in the above pics...

Man I can't wait to install this...I am out of town doing training this week! My W/M kit is sitting at home and I have purchased and overnighted the USB Key Ross-tech cable. I also grabbed the T/B plate from USRT and that should be there Friday. So I should be good to go with the install.

Be sure to also download the Unitronics software (http://www.unitronic.ca/uni/content/view/148/58/) so you can adjust timing, etc.

Thanks for the link. I was torn between the serial and the usb cable after reading up on the software. Lemmiwinks from Revo wont work with the USB but the newest version of uni will! :D

My kit came in the mal today. Gonna go start mocking things up in a few...

someone find me a laptop with a serial input still on it. Those cables are about to be obsolete

There are actually some used computer stores around. Check your local paper. You can get an older business grade laptop with a serial port. Or, upgrade your serial VAG-COM cable to a USB cable. That's what I finally did.

You can also try ebay.

ORIGINAL: achTTung

My kit came in the mal today. Gonna go start mocking things up in a few...


I did the hard work already finding a place for the pump and source for the fluid! [8D]

It actually got into the 80s on the drive home today. That's when you're glad you have water! The performance is simply awesome.

hmmmm idk about having the pump higher than the actual fluid....that creates more of a sucking effect rather than a pumping...these are some of the best pumps availible and im sure they can handle it but its a recommendation to have the pump lower than the fluid...and as close as possible...this means dont install your pump in your truck unless your fluid is back there with it...

These pumps are claimed to be self priming for up to 8 vertical feet.

I can't see the pics on this site (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1244&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0) right now (corporate network weenies filter some on-line photo sites), but I believe there is one that shows the new Aquamist system using aShurFlo pump mounted with the tank for trunk installations.

EDIT: Here's the pic I was referring to. Now that's a sweet setup. I'm sure Devil is gonna come up with something like that! :)

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/djerickd/DSC01367.jpg

ya i see the pics the pump is still mounted below most the fluid...its on the trunk with the tank but most the fluid is still above the pump... these pumps are strong...so idk

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

There are actually some used computer stores around. Check your local paper. You can get an older business grade laptop with a serial port. Or, upgrade your serial VAG-COM cable to a USB cable. That's what I finally did.

You can also try ebay.


I wasnt looking, i was just saying no currently made laptop has them since the usb is so much faster.

It doesnt matter where you mount the pump, just as long as its close to the tank

ORIGINAL: cincyTT

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

There are actually some used computer stores around. Check your local paper. You can get an older business grade laptop with a serial port. Or, upgrade your serial VAG-COM cable to a USB cable. That's what I finally did.

You can also try ebay.


I wasnt looking, i was just saying no currently made laptop has them since the usb is so much faster.



Here ya go, from Dell. Starting at only $3899! [8D]

http://i.dell.com/images/global/products/latit/latit_xfr_d630_spec_313x406.jpg


Actually there are some cheaper ones from Dell. Just search "serial port". Or just get the USB cable from Ross Tech. And if you don't need VAG-COM, ECSTuning (http://www.ecstuning.com/stage/edpd/pagebuild_v2.cgi?searchstring=obd+cable&searchqt=b yvehicle&make=Audi&model=TT+MKI&submodel=Quattro&e ngine=225HP) has generic OBD USB cables for $30.

I picked up my laptop for $50, it was obsolete from Proctor & Gamble when an upgrade came around. Needed BIOS and OS installed, but otherwise good to go. When they wipe a computer for sensitive info, they're SERIOUS about it....

BTW, I IM'd with Chance about using the pump in a 'pull' situation, he said it shouldnt be a problem, but the scenario I gave him was a max of 3 feet between the pump and tank. Double that and you almost have the length from hatch to hood, so I don't see where it'd be a problem. I'd mount the tank higher in that situation for sure.

I've had a couple of times when really small stuff that may be in the bottom of my washer tank gets sucked up and passed through the pump. Then it gets caught in the check valve, causing vacuum leak symptoms. Here is my solution. It's a Purolator fuel filter (part no. F20011)installed on the intake side of the pump. The 1/4" lines fit snuggly inside the barbs of the filter. It will also act to catch any air in the line, though I haven't had any problem like that.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300027.jpg

that filter is a good idea

ya i thought of that...doesnt aquamist have something like that?

What size nozzles did everyone get? I opened my kit last night andI have a 1 and 4.

im just doing a d03 at the tb plate...i have a d04 for when i add a little more hp like a downpipe or somthing. just depends how i tune the car...im not gonna turn up the boost a whole lot maybe 22-23 psi max...gonna start at 1 degree timing advance and go from there prolly not gonna go past 4 degrees tho...

I was hoping to get the 3 as well. I was planning on doing the same as you. Start off just using 1 nozzle with the T/B adaptor. I had been reading over on vortex people where having trouble with the nozzle bungs in the silicon hoses and I was contemplating if it was worth the trouble. Now I have a nozzle that would be either too large or too small. I may just mail off for the 3.

I can't wait to get this project going! I was training in Minni for a week and got home last last night with my goodies waiting. My kit, T/B flange and the wife ran to Fed Ex to pick up my Ross-tech cable as she was running errands.

Edit:
Ijust used the nozzle calculator and it said to use a 4.02 when I put in RPM 7k, 22PSI, 1.8lt. I wondering if I would be fine with just using the 4, hmmm.

the 4 will be more then enough....start with 3 then go from there....4 is more for over 300hp......jettared hows that fuel filter working so far??? notice the meth eating that paper inside??? im gonna pick one up tonight and install with it as well...after the crud gets caught in the filter im prolly gonna take it out....shouldnt really need one after that...the air bubble idea is good...but with nozzle i dont thkn the air bubble will hurt the engine...nor do i see air bubbles entering the system....but hey anything is possible...lol....also jetta did you just put the 90degree fitting on the line in the fluid tank to keep the weight on the line...i saw u did it the lazy way LOL..u really should install the line in the bottom of the tank to get the best use...but what you did will work too.

also who is gonna be making thier own water/meth juice? i know i am...just dont know the exact amounts of yellow bottle heet and distilled water i need....i think heet is something like 99 percent meth so im thinking just mix a 50/50 and good to go....not 100% on this but i will post when im sure

ORIGINAL: neur0tic

Hey,

I know Methanol can be a pain in the butt to get ahold of in the raw form I'm sure... and not everyone can just keep reordering Boost Juice™ from snowperformance everytime their tank runs dry.

Here's some info for those people considering Water/Methanol Injection systems for their vehicle.
First... A quote from Snowperformance on alternative solutions for w/m injection:
ORIGINAL: Snowperformance FAQ
SP sells 50/50% methanol/waterMethanol as Boost Juice™ (see products). Methanol can generally be purchased where racing fuels are sold. Also, most gas line dryers like "Heet" are simply Methanol. Suppliers of industrial chemicals can also supply Methanol usually at a higher price than fuel suppliers.

If all else fails, most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% Methanol and 58% water. Although most contain some glycol and detergent(less than 1%), most windshield washer fluids are up to 40% methanol. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol" and is rated to -20ºf

Now I decided to go ahead and email HEET™ and find out the exact methanol content of their products to be sure how to mix it.

Below are my email and their response:
ORIGINAL: Email traffic between Me and HEET™

Me: I just have a quick question about HEET ingredients.
I recently installed a water/methanol injection system on my vehicle. The system uses a 50/50 water/methanol solution and injects it directly into the Turbo charge pipe after the intercooler and just prior to the throttle body.[/align] Can you tell me the methanol and water content % in HEET gasline antifreeze and also in the HEET windshield anti-ice concentrate product?[/align][/align]HEET™: While ,I can't comment on your specific application HEET gasoline Antifreeze is 99.90% Methanol ~0.10 water.
To get 50% by volume methanol water mix use it 1:1 [/align][/align]ME:
What about the HEET windshield de-ice concentrate?[/align]It's blue... and it says 4 parts of de-ice concentrate to 5 parts water for protection to -25F[/align]Whats the methanol content in that one?[/align][/align]HEET™ : Do Not use windshield wash
I can not under any circumstances recommend HEET Windshield De-Icer Concentrate ,There are other additives in it.[/align][/align]ME: The company that makes it... actually advises that regular windshield washer fluid is a great alternative to the fluid THEY produce since almost all windshield washer fluids contain at least 40% methanol. Can you at least tell me the methanol content?[/align][/align]HEET™ : My Point is that there are surfactants/ which foam /and anti corrosion additive in ours: Do Not Use to run in an injection sustem
Methanol content for Windshield de-ice Concentrate is 95%v/v [/align][/align]In my opinion... (this is ONLY my opinion) All windshield washer fluids contain surfactants that foam up (detergents). I would assume since the snowperformance FAQ does mention detergents in the contents of windshield washer fluids... and still recommends it as an alternative, then I would assume the detergents in HEET™ De-ice WW fluid is fine as well. [/align][/align] I posted this more or less so people know the facts about it straight from the manufacturers before they invest in the system. Overall, HEET™ in the yellow bottle, and HEET™ in the blue WW fluid bottle... would both work great in a Water / methanol injection system. Both can be purchased at almost any Auto Parts Store... and even WalMart.[/align][/align] So if you're considering this mod... but you're worried about availability of methanol... I hope this'll help you out.[/align][/align]- Chris[/align][/align][/align][/align][/align]

thats the thread i was looking for...lol YAY

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

...jettared hows that fuel filter working so far??? notice the meth eating that paper inside??? im gonna pick one up tonight and install with it as well...after the crud gets caught in the filter im prolly gonna take it out....shouldnt really need one after that...the air bubble idea is good...but with nozzle i dont thkn the air bubble will hurt the engine...nor do i see air bubbles entering the system....but hey anything is possible...lol....also jetta did you just put the 90degree fitting on the line in the fluid tank to keep the weight on the line...i saw u did it the lazy way LOL..u really should install the line in the bottom of the tank to get the best use...but what you did will work too.


I don't know why methanol would eat paper, but the filter is holding up fine. I used one similar to that when I had my Aquamist system installed on my A4, but the main reason was to trap air. The Aquamist pump that I have is a piston type pump and is was NOT self-priming. I chose a fuel filter figuring that the washer fluid I use (even with extra methanol) is not as harsh as gasoline. But I could be wrong. I never had a problem with the filter paper and I used it for a long time.

As far as the 90 degree fitting, no I didn't use it. I just ran the line to the bottom of the washer tank. Actually, I found that to be a better way. That way you don't ever have to worry about the fitting leaking or anything.

JettaRed...

I was looking at the pieces of my kit (can't installyet Ineed to get a D03, they sent me 1 and 4...devil doc confirmed to start w/3). My question is regarding the T/B flange.The nozzle screws into the flang, outside in correct?MeaningI start threading the nozzle into it from what would be the exposed side. I noticed that I can only screw the nozzle in so far where the bottom of the nozzle becomes flush with theinside circle but the nozzle has more threading on it and could go further in. I have tried screwing it from the inside out (begin threading the nozzle from the non-exposed side)but it won't even go in. I am guessing that the nozzle does not have to be in theairstream and you want the bottom of the nozzle flush. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have never installed W/M before but understand how "it all works". I just want to make sure that the flange is machined correctly because the nozzle does not screw in all the way, it just stops like it's about to be cross threaded. I don't want to force it in and ruin the threads.How is yours setup?

I just installed mine today. I too am having to problem with misfires at idle. I will also get one or two random ones during acceleration. I checked my check valve before I installed everything and it looked fine. I then had these problems and looked at it again and noticed that i have put it in backwards. So I flipped it around and i am still having problems. i am going to pull the valve out again tomorrow morning and see if i can see anything. Any other ideas? OH and I have a small hole in my radiator that I found today. [:@]

Josh

ORIGINAL: Mobius97

JettaRed...

I was looking at the pieces of my kit (can't installyet Ineed to get a D03, they sent me 1 and 4...devil doc confirmed to start w/3). My question is regarding the T/B flange.The nozzle screws into the flang, outside in correct?MeaningI start threading the nozzle into it from what would be the exposed side. I noticed that I can only screw the nozzle in so far where the bottom of the nozzle becomes flush with theinside circle but the nozzle has more threading on it and could go further in. I have tried screwing it from the inside out (begin threading the nozzle from the non-exposed side)but it won't even go in. I am guessing that the nozzle does not have to be in theairstream and you want the bottom of the nozzle flush. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I have never installed W/M before but understand how "it all works". I just want to make sure that the flange is machined correctly because the nozzle does not screw in all the way, it just stops like it's about to be cross threaded. I don't want to force it in and ruin the threads.How is yours setup?


Mine is the same way. I thought something was wrong, too. But I called Chance and asked if Devil's thread size was the same as Snow's (because I got the flange from USRT) and he said it was. The type of threading used is 1/8 NPT "pipe" threading, which means it's "tapered" (versus NPS meaning "National Pipe Straight").That means the hole tapers smaller as you go in. (Also why you couldn't screw it in from the inside.) The idea is to be able to connect pieces tightly without using sealing tape or anything like that. Short answer: your stuff is OK.

(More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_pipe_thread)

Mine does not fit in all the way, but that seems not to be a problem. FWIW, I originally order a couple nozzles from Snow after getting the flange and discovering I couldn't use it with my Aquamist nozzles. Then I couldn't use the Snow nozzles with my aquamist piping.Then I decided to do things right and got the Devil's Own kit. The Snow nozzles would only go in so far too.

You want to make the nozzles snug, but don't overtighten them. It would have been helpful if this particular bit of info had been included with the kit.

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

I just installed mine today. I too am having to problem with misfires at idle. I will also get one or two random ones during acceleration. I checked my check valve before I installed everything and it looked fine. I then had these problems and looked at it again and noticed that i have put it in backwards. So I flipped it around and i am still having problems. i am going to pull the valve out again tomorrow morning and see if i can see anything. Any other ideas? OH and I have a small hole in my radiator that I found today. [:@]

Josh


How was the check valve in backwards? It can only fit one way. Is this what you mean?

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/images/checkvalve1_lg.png

The rough idle is very likely some kind of vacuum leak that draws in water. Don't overtighten stuff, but make sure it is snug.

Well I put a quick release thing on the other side and then when I installed it the arrow was backwards. Thats what I get for doing it later when I am getting tired I guess. I am going to take it apart again today to see whats going on inside of it.

Josh

I'm a little confused, but that's ok. The way you should assemble it is the nozzle then the 90 degree threaded connector then the check valve.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Water%20Injection/S7300020-1.jpg

You can't see the nozzle here, but you can see the water line going into the check valve and the 90degress connector. The nozzle is threaded into the TB flange. Is this how you have yours?

idkl what it is but the fuel filter with that part number u posted is metal....and the barbs are way too big....is it in a blue box and says F20011??? lol thats crazy...i def want the clear one to see whats going on...

No, I am running the dual nozzle setup (S4 2.7T engine) so I put the check valve right before the line splits. I will get pictures for you.

Josh

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII


Short answer: your stuff is OK.



Thanks for the confirmation and explaining that to me!

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

idkl what it is but the fuel filter with that part number u posted is metal....and the barbs are way too big....is it in a blue box and says F20011??? lol thats crazy...i def want the clear one to see whats going on...


Hmmm, I'll check the filter itself. The box said F20011, but people have been known to swap stuff.

Ok, so I am really confused now. I disconnected the W/M kit and just tried starting the engine. I STILL get misfires in cylinders 2,3, and 6. It's consistant now and will not go away. I plugged the tubing going to the nozzles as well just so it was not sucking in any extra air or anything and it still does it. Whats the deal? Oh and my brakes don't work anymore ever since I have been getting the misfire problems. This is starting to make me mad. I did replace the spark plugs yesterday but I have done that a hundred times and never have had this problem. I put NGK BKR7E's in gapped to .028. I also have the GIAC-X ECU installed. Anyone have any ideas? Oh and I took the check valve apart again and it's fine. THere was NOTHING in there.

Josh

how about you take some pics on where u have your nozzles....and also how fresh are your coilpacks?

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

idkl what it is but the fuel filter with that part number u posted is metal....and the barbs are way too big....is it in a blue box and says F20011??? lol thats crazy...i def want the clear one to see whats going on...


Hmmm, I'll check the filter itself. The box said F20011, but people have been known to swap stuff.


F20011 is what is printed on the filter, too.

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

how about you take some pics on where u have your nozzles....and also how fresh are your coilpacks?


Pictures are uploading now.

As for the coilpacks I am not sure. I just got the car a little while ago. It has 76K miles on it.

Josh

Pics:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6051/38783895qi6.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5721/12pb7.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7534/13ok0.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2336/14pg7.jpg

Oh and the cylinders that are misfiring are 2,3, and 6. These cylinders are the ones farthest away from the TB. So IDK! [:@]


Josh

I see what you mean by the check valve getting in backwards. The single kits have one end threaded.

The firing order is 1-4-3-6-2-5. If 3-6-2 are misfiring, you should really notice it. It still sounds like some kind of vacuum leak. Are you sure where you tapped and installed the nozles are completely sealed?

I defenently know there is a misfire. It' idles insanely rough and sounds like crap. I know they are all sealed. I check them multiple times. But would a little extra air going into the intake cause 3 cylinders to misfire? I disconnected the WM kit so NO fluid was being injected (unplugged the hose going from the check valve to the Y splitter thing). Nothing changed. I could plug that hose going to the nozzles and nothing would change. I am thinking it might be something not related to the WM kit. I have no idea though.

Josh

gosh i thought our engines were a bitch to work on...that thing must suck lol anyways...idk about anybody else but i cant clearly see where those nozzles are....if you took a shot of the engine bay further away and then photoshopped where they are...it would really help me....im not very familiar with the 2.7T but i can get a better idea...like in the very last pic what is that> to me it doesnt look like a TB ...where are you injecting?

Here you go:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2052/1copyjh9.jpg

There are a couple other guys who are running them right there as well. Oh and these are the 1GPH nozzles. So 2GPH total between the two.

josh

OK, so here is an update:

I was thinking maybe the spark plugs had not been tightened down enough when I installed them. So i took the 3 out that were misfiring and re-tightened them down. Put everything back together and guess what! THEY STILL MISFIRE! My injection system is off and not injecting anything. WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON!!!!????!!!!????!!!!

Do you think I killed 3 of my 6 coil packs ALL at the exact same time? Is that even remotely possible?

Josh

Ok, just for kicks I tried putting the stock ECU back in and I still get the misfires. I am at a complete loss right now as to what is going on. I have no idea at all.

Josh

You could try moving the coils around and see if the same cylinders are misfiring (do the misfires follow the coils or stay with the cylinders).

Try removing the nozzles and plugging or taping the holes temporarily.

Does the vacuum on your boost gauge fluctuate?

What do you mean by your brakes don't work? Did they completely fail and don't stop the car at all?

What's happening with the controller? Do the lights flash/blink on startup?

Do they flash/blink after startup when at idle?

Have you tried disconnecting power from the pump or controller?

ok, I am trying to figure out how to test the ICM's because I read a few places that one of those could cause the misfires. I know for a fact it has nothing to do with the w/m kit now since I have completely dissabled it. As for the brakes yes, they do not stop the car hardly at all. They feel like when you pump the brakes when the car is off and you can't push the peddle down at all. I am going to go swap the ICM's around and see if the cylinders change on which ones are misfiring.

Josh

It is weird that these things should happen at the same time you install w/m, but stranger things have happened. A bad or failing ICM will cause misfires...I've replaced the ICM twice over the years on my '99 A4 and it has a little over 80k miles. Since you have two ICMs, I'm not sure which one controls which coils. I'll try to look it up in the Bentley. I'm still concerned about your brakes, especially since you have no DTCs or warning lights.

ok so i see you drilled into the intake tubes...most S4s run them that way?

Are you getting any DTCs besides the misfire codes? I just figured out that you are placing the nozzles right after the intercoolers. That means water is passing through the throttle body. I've said this before, but I've had horrible luck doing it that way. I had to replace the throttle bodies on both my '03 GTI and '01 A4 doing it that way, though not so suddenly.

more than 9 out of 10 people run injectors preTB and have nothing negative happen to them.

Nope, no other codes other than the misfire codes. I do have an o2 sensor heater code but thats intermitent and has not shown up for a while.

I just did the pressure test and I didn't hear/see any leaks. I will try one more time. Then I am going to start switching around the ICM's and see what that does.

I am getting frustrated.

josh

ORIGINAL: cincyTT

more than 9 out of 10 people run injectors preTB and have nothing negative happen to them.


I know. I'm#10.

I got the o2 code as well when I was leaking water because of the check valve. But you are now completely disconnected. I don't remember; did you move your coils around? I can't believe you had that many marginal component and one shot of water pushed them over the edge.

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

ORIGINAL: cincyTT

more than 9 out of 10 people run injectors preTB and have nothing negative happen to them.


I know. I'm#10.


i know, someone had to be

For kicks, check your fuses, especially those for ignition control and your brakes.

Ok, Just swapped the ICM's around and I am still getting misfires on the same... sort of... cylinders. I am getting misfires on 3,4, and 6 now instead of 2,3, and 6. Cylinder 3 seems to be the works. After about 15 sec of idle 3 had almost 200 misses while the others were around 20-30. I think I am going to switch some coil packs around now.

josh

Oh and the o2 sensor code has been here for a while... since I got the car.

josh

Another update:

I jsut swapped some of the coil packs around and the misfires do NOT follow them. They are still missing the same place as before. I now seem to have a vac leak but I can not find it. According to the pressure test there were no leaks. Could there be one somewhere else? Or is it just because the engine is working harder to keep itself running thus making it so it looks like there is a leak? The vavuum reads about -8HG. Where should I look? I have looked at all the big hoses, checked all the little fittings and can't find anything.

Oh and I tried unpluggin the MAF and that didn't do anything either.

Josh

Shot in the dark, injector o-rings

Maybe. I will look and see if I can see them leaking at all.

Some guys from AZ are saying they are almost 100% sure it's the brake booster spider hose. I checked it today and it looked fine and I could not hear any leaks coming from it. IDK though. I will look again tomorrow.

Josh

Do you have a Bentley manual? Do you have a diagram of your vacuum lines?

I'm not sure how you routed your water lines, but you could have inadvertantly knocked a line loose. Your car is 6 years old and some of the hoses may get brittle after a while. I have replace hoses on my older A4s that looked fine until you started moving them around and found they were cracked. The check valves seem to deteriorate even more quickly.

Why misfires are occuring on specific cylinders may have something to do with how they are detected. I will try to research and see if I can figure it out.

Wow! Reading about how misfires are detected makes my head swim! I better sit down!

Anyway, since the order is 1-4-3-6-2-5, it seems that the misfires are adjacent to each other in both cases; 3-6-2 anf 4-3-6. The misfire calculation is somewhat complex, but seems to be determined by lack of torque for the cylinder that is supposed to be firing. Can you check the fuel trim (032) and see where they are. Also, check your fuses. But I bet it is a cracked or split vacuum hose.

Oh yeah... How hard/how long will it take to replace all the vacuum lines? That really does not sound fun to me. LOL I know there is a diagram on the under side of the hood that shows where they all go. Has anyone ever done this?

What are the different sizes of hose that I will need?

josh

Someone else on AZ just suggested trying a new CTS? What do you guys think?

Josh

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

Someone else on AZ just suggested trying a new CTS? What do you guys think?

Josh


Cadillac CTS?

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

Oh yeah... How hard/how long will it take to replace all the vacuum lines? That really does not sound fun to me. LOL I know there is a diagram on the under side of the hood that shows where they all go. Has anyone ever done this?

What are the different sizes of hose that I will need?

josh


I don't think you need to replace all the lines, you just need to check all of them. Start with the lines closest to where you were working to install the kit, especially the ones connected to the brake servo.

CTS = coolant temp sensor.

Knowing the Audi way, i wouldnt be surprised if it is a braided line (probably fpr) that is cracked under the cover and you need to replace it.

ORIGINAL: JettaRedII

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

Someone else on AZ just suggested trying a new CTS? What do you guys think?

Josh


Cadillac CTS?


LOL, no the Coolant Temp Sensor.

As for the lines I will do that tonight. I also just sent a message to a guy I know who owns an S4 near by me and asked if he would be willing to come over so we can try swapping a few of his coilpacks into my car and see if my problem will go away. A few guys on AZ say that if you have one coilpack that is dead it can cause other cylinders to misfire as well. I am thinking it's coilpack number 3 that is dead since thats the one that gets the most misfires. I will try moving that one tonight as well to see if the mass misfires follows that one. Uhh I hate this.

Josh

It seems really odd that all this has happened since you put on the water kit. However, if it is a coil pack that was marginal, the added stress of trying to ignite the mixture with water could put it over the edge. In the 1.8T world, coil pack failure was prevalent. One of the main causes was having spark plug gaps too wide. Though the manual says you can go to .031", I had several fail on my GTI until I closed them down to .028". The problem is that the wider gap, especially on a chipped car, requires more voltage to jump the gap. Under increased boost (and/or water), the coils eventually burn out because they are discharging greater voltages.

I just replaced the ICM and one of the coils on my '99 A4 because of misfires. My son drives the car and told me the CEL came on. He didn't notice any problem driving the car.

If you haven't already, you may want to pull your plugs and check the gaps.

I just put new plugs in (NGK BKR7e's) gapped at .028. I pulled them out and checked them again and they are still the same. .028.

Josh

ok so I just tried moving the coil pack that was giving the most misfires, cylinder 3, and switched it with the one that was not missing much, cylinder 2. Guess what!?!?! Cylinder 3 still misses most. I am so confused! Maybe it's the spark plug fouled up so I am going to swap spark plugs next just to see if that does anything. If so then I will go and buy new ones... again... and see if that fixes my problems. I still can not find any boost leaks so I am guessing the low vac is due to the misfires. I will let you know whats going on as soon as I can get them all swapped around.

Josh

Ok, I just tried switching the spark plugs and still no change. I now get misfires on 4 of the 6 cylinders. Here are the codes I just pulled:

VAG-COM Version: Release 409.1-S

Control Module Part Number: 8D0 907 551 J
Component and/or Version: 2.7l V6/5VT G 4000
Software Coding: 06751
Work Shop Code: WSC 06325
5 Faults Found:
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 35-00 - -
16687 - Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
P0303 - 35-00 - -
16690 - Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
P0306 - 35-00 - -
16686 - Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
P0302 - 35-00 - -
16689 - Cylinder 5 Misfire Detected
P0305 - 35-00 - -


As you can see it's the back 4 cylinders. The front 2 are fine. What else could be causing this? I am so lost right now. I want to burn my car.

Josh

Things are getting worse. I know this is a shot in the dark, but try disconnecting the battery for a while. That sometimes affects the ECU differently.

Also, after you clear your codes each time do you do a TBA?

Josh are you still injecting w/m or no?

Ok, I will try disconnecting it.

No, the W/m is completely disconnected. No power nothing is turned on.

josh

Hey, what is this? It's coming off the coolant expansion tank. Doens't look like it goes anywhere?

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9700/0421082104bk1.jpg

Just tried it with the new plugs and still am misfiring. No change at all... Not even the slightest. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

So... I think I am done for tonight.

Any more ideas? I am going to be towing it to a buddies shop tomorrow to see if we can figure it out there.

Josh

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

Ok, I will try disconnecting it.

No, the W/m is completely disconnected. No power nothing is turned on.

josh

Hey, what is this? It's coming off the coolant expansion tank. Doens't look like it goes anywhere?

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9700/0421082104bk1.jpg




Your tank is in a different spot than the 1.8T cars. Where does it attach to the coolant tank? Is it an overflow hose so coolant doesn't splash on the ABS controller?

It doesn't look right. I looks like it's been cut on the end.

Is the hose #15 in the picture? If so, it's just a drain hose.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p12/JettaRedII/Audi/S4coolanttank2002.jpg

I just checked the Bentley manual and other causes of misfires can be faulty fuel injectors (unlikely) or lack of fuel. I'm guessing you have fuel in your tank, but have you checked the fuses for the fuel pump and injectors?

How did you splice your wire into the MAP sensor? If possible, remove the wire from the controller. Just in case there is something wrong with the controller. Though you would normally get a DTC if things were wacky with the MAP, I once did the diode mod and know that if you mess things up, the car will run like crap. But I have only 1.8Ts; the 2.7T may run like crap but not throw a code if the MAP signal is flaky.

I used a crimp connecter, not the ones that came with the w/m kit. It was on there good. I will disconnect it today and find out if that changes anything. And yes I do have fuel in the tank. Umm.... Oh I will also check the fuses. Oh and yes, that hose is number 15 in that picture. It looks like it's been cut for a long time (there is dirt and crap inside it) so I don't think it's anything.

josh

OK so just to make it easier on everyone here is a list of everything I have tried with the outcome of each test:

1. Checked W/M check valve - clean, still having misfire problems.
2. Completely disconnected the W/M kit - still having misfire problems.
3. Switched Coilpacks around - still have misfire problems on same cylinders. Did not follow coilpacks.
4. Pulled and tested the ICM's - both are good (according to the test) and still have misfire problems.
5. Swapped ICM's - still misfiring on same cylinders
6. Swapped spark plugs around to see if misfires follow them - no go, misfires still on same cylinders as before.
7. Replaced all the spark plugs with new ones - still having misfires on same cylinders
8. Pressure test - could not find anything leaking. Still having misfires.
9. Visually inspected all all the vac lines - could not find anything. Still misfires.

I am pretty sure thats it.

Here is my list of what I am going to try again today when I get off work:

1. Disconnect the wire from the MAP sensor that goes to the W/M kit and see what happens.
2. Compression Test (If this fails I will be ROYALLY PISSED!!!!!)
3. Spray down the engine with soapy water and re-try the pressure test.
4. Check all fuses that have to do with fueling... I will probably check them all anyways.
5. Throw a freaking wrench.
6. Have it towed to a buddies shop and see if a fresh set of eyes can find anything.

If anyone has any other ideas of stuff for me to try please please please LMK. I am getting desperate.

Josh

nvm i read wrong...

ORIGINAL: Red_sapphire89

nvm i read wrong...


Ha! I saw the original message. Quick move before the flaming started.

PROBLEM FOUND... NOT SO GOOD!

Just got my car towed back to my house from Chris's shop. The diagnoses is not good. We tested the ignition system and everything is good there. We then decided to do the compression test. This did not turn out so well. 3 of the 6 cylinders are running 175 for compression. 2 of them were around 155-160 and then cylinder number 3 (the one that was having the most misfires) had a big fat 0. Thats right, a 0. We looked into it further and concluded that I indeed have a blown head gasket and also have fried the piston rings. Woopty Freaken Do.

SO now I get to rebuild it.

What do you think? Should I leave the engine in the car to do it or pull it out? What do you think caused this? My first guess is the chip had a bad tune or something. I HIGHLY doubt that the W/M kit did this in just a matter of 45 min of the car running.

Josh

That really sucks! Besides adding the water, did you do anything else, such as advance the timing or up the boost? I, too, don't believe the w/m alone would cause you to blow a head gasket.

Nope, I used the pre-mixed stuff from Devils own. I did not even have enough time to tune it at all for the W/M kit. All I did was install it and ran a few intake temp logs I will post those in a bit to see what you think IAT wise before the W/M kit was activated. I am wondering if it was a bad tune or something. Maybe to much boost? I was spiking 17 and holding 15 with the GIAC-X file. Maybe I was running super lean or something because of it.

Josh

If you find a hole in the piston, then you did go lean, but due to a fueling problem with that specific cylinder. If the fuel injector clogged or failed, you could have a very lean cylinder 3. But if the piston is intact, then the engine should handle a 17 psi spike. Or the 2.7T is the weakest Audi engine I've seen. If anything, the w/m should have protected the engine instead of causing the problem.

I don't think it's a fuel injector problem. The spark plug was REALLY wet when we pulled it out and it smelled like gas.

Josh

The head(s) could of lifted and that would of blown the gasket. Since you have 0 compression, there has to be damaged valves also. Kind of sucks you havent had the car to long. I do think posting repair advace in this forum isnt going to get you much in the way of good info.

Yeah I posted that more to just let people know what was going on. I have a post here in the S4 forums: http://www.audiforums.com/m_864314/tm.htm

So from now on if you can post advice in there that would be awesome.

So you think I screwed my valves over as well? Do you think my timing belt broke? Or it slipped or something? Post in the other thread.

Josh

Ok, Here are some logs I took. I am wondering if the controller for the W/M kit was bad. Look at how low the RPMs are when the IAT start to drop. I think the kit was injecting way before I built boost up. Possibly it was injecting as soon as I went to WOT?

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5336/iattempsal8.jpg

Any input?

josh

maybe, where you set your minand max for? That big of a decrease at 1800rpms is a little large.

Yeah. I had it coming on at 7-8 PSI and then hitting full at 15 PSI.

josh

almost done installing mine jsut gotta hook up the controller....found a better spot to mount the pump...its about the same area but i think anybody not using the stock airbox will have to do it my way....and move your boost machine if ypou have one.....i will post pics later.....also jettared...when you installed your filter you had the arrow facing the up(where it says to carb) and going to the inlet on the pump....correct?

ORIGINAL: ThePaintballGuy

Yeah. I had it coming on at 7-8 PSI and then hitting full at 15 PSI.

josh


i guess you see 7psi by 1800rpms then. If so, then its normal

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

almost done installing mine jsut gotta hook up the controller....found a better spot to mount the pump...its about the same area but i think anybody not using the stock airbox will have to do it my way....and move your boost machine if ypou have one.....i will post pics later.....also jettared...when you installed your filter you had the arrow facing the up(where it says to carb) and going to the inlet on the pump....correct?


Yes. The picture is a little misleading. The tube runs under the pump to the inlet side. The order is washer tank to filter to pump to checkvalve/nozzle. The filter is between the washer tank and pump. The reason is because if you put it on the outlet side of the pump, it'll probably blow it apart. I don't think the filter is rated for 150 psi.

go it all done and gonna go out and tune...wish me luck...im using lemiwinks
will post pics in the next few days...pretty easy install

It's been 1 hour 20 minutes already. What's happening?

ok some things....before i tuned anything i thought it be a good idea to make sure everything works i have the low setting at 11psi and that works ok...and max at 18psi...well the LED is green at 11 then gets bright green past 11 psi till around 15-18 psi and then the yellow led goes flashing steady....this was done wot through gears.....i then tried something i thought would give a different result(and it did) i was in 6th gear and floored it....11 psi ....green....past 11psi bright green....max psi still just bright green...NO YELLOW....its weird...im pretty sure all my wiring is correct...and i did solder the map sensor wire and if that was bad i dont think the controller would know where the boost is and wouldnt turn green...etc.....im lost any ideas?

Hey look on the bright side, your engine didn't blow up!

I look forward to seeing your logs and whatnot.

Josh

OK. Give the engine time to adapt. The very first couple of runs I saw less boost, especially in the higher gears. Now it's ok. Do you havea boost gauge? what did it say?

Remember, your engine is seeing different conditions and needs a little time to adapt.

Adjust your max boost levels lower until you get it to come on (yellow) and hold.

PaintBallGuy,

I would think that you could replace the head gasket without pulling the engine. If the piston or rings are damaged, then you may need to. But I've not worked on a 2.7T, so I'm not sure. If valves are damaged (and I don't know why they would be), then you could repairthem with the head off.

Let us know what's happening.

Yeah i will. We are pretty sure the rings are fried or at least a few of them are. There are some small metal shavings in the oil :( We will see whats going on once we pull the engine. Hopefully start sat night and then finish up sunday. Not sure yet though.

Josh

well i guess i was worried fo nothing...yet we are still gonna confirm with chance of devils own but i guess what i am experencing is normal operation...the instructions were a little confusing on that

ORIGINAL: MeanAudiA6

well i guess i was worried fo nothing...yet we are still gonna confirm with chance of devils own but i guess what i am experencing is normal operation...the instructions were a little confusing on that


Here's the response from Devil's: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/blinking-leds-need-clarification-1421.html#post6753

Basically, steady (full) yellow is ok; blinking or flashing yellow is not.

hmmm idk if he means while u approach the 95 percent....basically..can fault mode happen while the green LED is on??? that would help with this...and i mean the yellow only comes on while the green is lit...but also...say im in 6th gear and reach the full boost i get no yellow light from what i can remember urrgggh

That can happen if you are not holding boost above the "full on" threshold. Set the "full on" at around 15 psi and see if you have a problem then.

I think if you have a bona fide fault, the yellow light would start a steady blinking. Don't know if the green has to be on first.

ok finally i have some better results seems it had to adjust...now ok this is whats happening....i have the first knob(light injection) set at around 7psi and the max(second knob 100 percent injection) set at around 15 psi...once i get around the 7psi the green LED lights up, then close to the 15psi it gets bright green while the yellow LED flickers a little and once im around that max setting 15psi and above the yellow LED stays lit....no flash or flicker...

Yep. That's right. I got a posting from Dvldoc who said most people set the full (max) setting to be about 3/4 of their peak boost.

good deal now i jsut gotta tune...lol the fun begins...since im using lemmiwinks cuz unisettings doesnt work for some reason...what did your timing look like with that giac chip before u started tuning?

Don't know. Never measured it.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/water-injection-run-regular-fuel-1254.html

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING....i might try putting in the 87oct fuel and see what happens...i did noticed with out touching my boost controller that the boost raised about 3 psi....i had it maxed at 19-20 now its 22-23 psi....

Yeah, but don't mess with your timing yet if you are going to run 87 octane.

and jetta what i meant was how did the program display your timing> before TDC? or what did u change...u used unisetting didnt you? i know lemmiwinks will work tho...i havnt booted lemmiwinks in a while and im at wrk just trying to get a head start for when i get home after class....

Oh, using lemmiwinks or Unisetting, find the timing setting (Channel 9) and increase it to three degrees. Each increment is .75 degrees, so the end value for 3 degrees is Channel 09: 0x04 (from 0x00).

gotcha thats all i needed...thanks again...is that what u have yours on?> or did u go 0x05 and u started by going 0x01 0x02 etc etc till u got where u are now the 0x04? since u cant get an even 4 its either 3degrees or 3.75 degrees or 4,5 degrees=0x06??? this was the method i was gonna use and then use vag com to see when the timing was being pulled and use the butt dyno to feel when its pretty strong...but i do know i dont wanna go pst 4-5 degrees lol

I started at 0x01, 0x02...and stopped at 0x04. I have not gone higher than that. If I do, I may want to lower my boost a bit. It would be interesting to see if power increases. Sometimes my car feels faster with 12 psi than it does at 20 psi.

i feel ya on that...it does feel like the powerband got longer but u feel it sooner now..