Timing Belt Job- success!
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Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/26/2008 11:36:48 PM
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TopGUn86
Posts: 106
Joined: 8/1/2007
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well i just finished doing my timing belt with my buddy. Damn is that a lot of work!
Oh, and to make it even better.. we were tired as hell at by the time we threw the serp belt on we messed up putting on the tensioner When we started the car up, it ate the new serp belt.
After another hour of messin with it, because we already threw the car together completely, we managed to sneak the old serp belt on around the fan. Ill order a new one next week...
The car drive amazingly better. I didn't expect such a huge improvement!
I went by this guid http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng63.shtml , but it wasnt completely correct. A few different clips to remove, a few incorrect wrench sizes, and we never removed the entire front clip... we rather leaned it forward. I think because that guide is for timing on the allroad. But thanks to they guy who wrote it up :)
Oh and we didnt use any special tools. No cam locker. Got lucky i guesss; counted timing keys and were very, very careful. Also, we didnt have the fan 'chop stick' tools, so we used an air hammer to loosen the bolt.
i ordered the delux timing kit from http://www.blauparts.com for $350
success!
_____________________________
-Tim. Denver, CO
2000 A6 2.7T Tip. 95k GPS . Bailey DVs and Tip 00032 recode soon..
2 12" Kicker Solo, 3000 watts
Clear Corners, 5% & 15% tint. Tinted Tail Lights (3M bra)
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 12:57:41 AM
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louiscolburn
Posts: 30
Joined: 12/14/2006
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Good job man! well, you saved yourself approximately 1500 dollars (avg. for the job) but being a heck of a job like you described, I don't feel that bad paying the dealer 1200 for everything. I jus thave the peace of mind that the job was done (at 101K miles).
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 2:26:55 AM
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Kevin
Posts: 540
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: online
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Great story. I think I will stick with the dealer as well.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 4:46:06 AM
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catdog
Posts: 86
Joined: 10/14/2007
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Good job Tim.
I just did mine at 100,000 and the water pump showed signs of going bad. You could see the pink fluid leaking from the seal. Good timing, so to speak.
I used the blauparts kit. Good company.
_____________________________
2002 3.0 Quattro
Hill Country, Texas
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 7:41:49 AM
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beng
Posts: 88
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 8:19:36 AM
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TopGUn86
Posts: 106
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline
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Thanks. Ya, next time i will probablly take it to a shop because it is a PITA :)
BENG what are you talking about? There are sensors on each cam and if timing were off even the slightest bit, i would have thrown a cel
_____________________________
-Tim. Denver, CO
2000 A6 2.7T Tip. 95k GPS . Bailey DVs and Tip 00032 recode soon..
2 12" Kicker Solo, 3000 watts
Clear Corners, 5% & 15% tint. Tinted Tail Lights (3M bra)
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 12:21:41 PM
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frankinstyn
Posts: 151
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
Being the engineer and mechanic that I am...I can't let that go. No, the timing is not that touchy. If you have the right teeth of the belt in the right place then no problem. That cam locking tool and the crank locking tools are not necessary. They are simply helpful.
When I did mine (about a month ago at 96,000) I too did not use the cam locking tool. However there is a timing mark on the crank so pretty hard to get that one wrong and I used a 5' strait edge to mark across both cams to make sure those didn't move. In the end that was actually easier to do than use the cam locking tool because of the tightness of the belt. I actually rotated the driver's side cam a little and then rotated it back to make it easier to get the belt on. No problems! No cel and the car started up instantly with no odd noises either when I was done. I didn't notice any increase or better feel after I was done though. I simply drove as it always has.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 4:42:36 PM
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event
Posts: 48
Joined: 4/8/2008
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Didn't the kit come with instructions, also what is the benefit of getting the enhanced kit over the regular one? I'm asking because I plan on doing this and would like to know what is needed.
I just finished changing my axle and it was a PITA, I had to go back to the store several times to buy various tools I didn't have in my collection, which has worked fine for years on three different kinda cars. I mean hex and star sockets, wtf... I really don't want to go through not having the right tools again.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 4:53:16 PM
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TopGUn86
Posts: 106
Joined: 8/1/2007
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im not sure what more is included in the deluxe kit, i know a water pump. I figured if i was going to be in there, i might as well replace everything. The kit does come with some instructions, but they aren't very helpful. Good luck with yours. Send me a message if you want more help.
_____________________________
-Tim. Denver, CO
2000 A6 2.7T Tip. 95k GPS . Bailey DVs and Tip 00032 recode soon..
2 12" Kicker Solo, 3000 watts
Clear Corners, 5% & 15% tint. Tinted Tail Lights (3M bra)
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 7:11:42 PM
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leave it stock
Posts: 4
Joined: 4/27/2008
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Congrats,
Many guys do this service this way and if you are careful you'll be okay. Note the balancer can spin on some audi and vw engines, this part is sometimes mounted in rubber so it can spin and not line up with the mark. The tools used correctly keep you safe!!!! Who wants to do the seals 5,000 miles after you put new rubber on..... I know the value of saving money but on some things use a professional it makes more since. I'd say you have guts....
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/27/2008 7:20:08 PM
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beng
Posts: 88
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankinstyn
quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
Being the engineer and mechanic that I am...I can't let that go. No, the timing is not that touchy. If you have the right teeth of the belt in the right place then no problem. That cam locking tool and the crank locking tools are not necessary. They are simply helpful.
When I did mine (about a month ago at 96,000) I too did not use the cam locking tool. However there is a timing mark on the crank so pretty hard to get that one wrong and I used a 5' strait edge to mark across both cams to make sure those didn't move. In the end that was actually easier to do than use the cam locking tool because of the tightness of the belt. I actually rotated the driver's side cam a little and then rotated it back to make it easier to get the belt on. No problems! No cel and the car started up instantly with no odd noises either when I was done. I didn't notice any increase or better feel after I was done though. I simply drove as it always has.
The timming is not that touchy? No, your car well run just fine without perfect timming. If you want perfect timming use the tools. If close enough is good enough for you, then don't use the tools.
Do you, the engineer understand " pretensioning"the timming belt and why it is essential to accurate and true timming? BENG
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 12:05:26 AM
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frankinstyn
Posts: 151
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
Being the engineer and mechanic that I am...I can't let that go. No, the timing is not that touchy. If you have the right teeth of the belt in the right place then no problem. That cam locking tool and the crank locking tools are not necessary. They are simply helpful.
When I did mine (about a month ago at 96,000) I too did not use the cam locking tool. However there is a timing mark on the crank so pretty hard to get that one wrong and I used a 5' strait edge to mark across both cams to make sure those didn't move. In the end that was actually easier to do than use the cam locking tool because of the tightness of the belt. I actually rotated the driver's side cam a little and then rotated it back to make it easier to get the belt on. No problems! No cel and the car started up instantly with no odd noises either when I was done. I didn't notice any increase or better feel after I was done though. I simply drove as it always has.
The timming is not that touchy? No, your car well run just fine without perfect timming. If you want perfect timming use the tools. If close enough is good enough for you, then don't use the tools.
Do you, the engineer understand " pretensioning"the timming belt and why it is essential to accurate and true timming? BENG
Now you're being intentionally dense. The cam and crank lock tools have nothing to do with pretensioning the timing belt. Pretensioning is the placing of the belt under tension so that the friction between the belt and the drive pulley is sufficient to ensure that the belt does not slip against the surface of the pulley. It does not apply in this case because these belts have teeth. In fact, I have yet to see a timing belt that relies soley on the friction of the rubber on the pully. That said, the accuracy of our timing relies on the accurate placement of the teeth on the belt. The use of crank and camshaft locks is not going to improve the accuracy of those teeth.
Think of it this way....lets say you have two gears. They mesh together very well but still have two thousanths inch play when assembled properly. Now what you are stating is that by using the cam and crank locks you can get these teeth to line up so perfectly that the teeth will line up inside each other that each tooth on each gear will not even be touching the two teeth surrounding it. So yes, when you are done it will be perfectly accurrate....until you start spinning these gears. Now the gears will slide on each other (albeit only two thousanths of and inch) until the teech contact each other again...therefore limiting the accurracy back to the accuracy of the machining.
The only way to overcome the limitations of the timing belt is to make the timing belt out of a harder rubber....but even then....my point still stands.
You are also making a big assumption...that the old timing belt did not stretch in the 60-100 thousand miles that it was used and is still keeping your camshaft timing absolutely perfect. If your point of view were valid, you would actually be hurting the timing of the engine by setting the timing with the new belt to the now-off timing caused by the stretching of the old belt. After 3 or 4 timing belt changes you would be off a tooth or more!
Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't use that cam and crank lock. If you don't want to worry about the cams rotating then by all means rent the tool for the nominal fee. I'm simply saying that , if done correctly, you'll be no more inaccurate or accurate by simply marking the crank and camshaft and returing them to those marks as you install the timing belt. Neither method is going to affect the accuracy of the timing when all is said and done.
Don't go throwing out slogans that you're heard in passing from an audi brochure or a shop mechanic trying to justify a padded bill.
Frankie
< Message edited by frankinstyn -- 4/28/2008 11:06:28 AM >
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 12:12:43 AM
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frankinstyn
Posts: 151
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leave it stock
Congrats,
Many guys do this service this way and if you are careful you'll be okay. Note the balancer can spin on some audi and vw engines, this part is sometimes mounted in rubber so it can spin and not line up with the mark. The tools used correctly keep you safe!!!! Who wants to do the seals 5,000 miles after you put new rubber on..... I know the value of saving money but on some things use a professional it makes more since. I'd say you have guts....
Very true. Instead of relying on the timing marks you can simply mark both the camshafts as I mentioned before and also mark the position of the crankshaft with a line across the end of the shaft itself instead of the balancer. Therefore you are bypassing the harmonic balancer and your crank will be aligned as it was with the camshafts before you dissassembled.
Thankyou. I had forgotten to mention this.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 7:33:07 AM
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beng
Posts: 88
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankinstyn
quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankinstyn
quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
Being the engineer and mechanic that I am...I can't let that go. No, the timing is not that touchy. If you have the right teeth of the belt in the right place then no problem. That cam locking tool and the crank locking tools are not necessary. They are simply helpful.
When I did mine (about a month ago at 96,000) I too did not use the cam locking tool. However there is a timing mark on the crank so pretty hard to get that one wrong and I used a 5' strait edge to mark across both cams to make sure those didn't move. In the end that was actually easier to do than use the cam locking tool because of the tightness of the belt. I actually rotated the driver's side cam a little and then rotated it back to make it easier to get the belt on. No problems! No cel and the car started up instantly with no odd noises either when I was done. I didn't notice any increase or better feel after I was done though. I simply drove as it always has.
The timming is not that touchy? No, your car well run just fine without perfect timming. If you want perfect timming use the tools. If close enough is good enough for you, then don't use the tools.
Do you, the engineer understand " pretensioning"the timming belt and why it is essential to accurate and true timming? BENG
Now you're being intentionally dense. The cam and crank lock tools have nothing to do with pretensioning the timing belt. Pretensioning is the placing of the belt under tension so that the friction between the belt and the drive pulley is sufficient to ensure that the belt does not slip against the surface of the pulley. It does not apply in this case because these belts have teeth. In fact, I have yet to see a timing belt that relies soley on the friction of the rubber on the pully. That said, the accuracy of our timing relies on the accurate placement of the teeth on the belt. The use of crank and camshaft locks is not going to improve the accuracy of those teeth.
Think of it this way....lets say you have two gears. They mesh together very well but still have two thousanths inch play when assembled properly. Now what you are stating is that by using the cam and crank locks you can get these teeth to line up so perfectly that the teeth will line up inside each other that each tooth on each gear will not even be touching the two teeth surrounding it. So yes, when you are done it will be perfectly accurrate....until you start spinning these gears. Now the gears will slide on each other (albeit only two thousanths of and inch) until the teech contact each other again...therefore limiting the accurracy back to the accuracy of the machining.
The only way to overcome the limitations of the timing belt is to make the timing belt out of a harder rubber....but even then....my point still stands.
You are also making a big assumption...that the old timing belt did not stretch in the 60-100 thousand miles that it was used and is still keeping your camshaft timing absolutely perfect. If your point of view were valid, you would actually be hurting the timing of the engine by setting the timing with the new belt to the now-off timing caused by the stretching of the old belt. After 3 or 4 timing belt changes you would be off a tooth or more!
Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't use that cam and crank lock. If you don't want to worry about the cams rotating then by all means rent the tool for the nominal fee. I'm simply saying that , if done correctly, you'll be no more inaccurate or accurate by simply marking the crank and camshaft and returing them to those marks as you install the timing belt. Neither method is going to affect the accuracy of the timing when all is said and done.
Don't go throwing out slogans that you're heard in passing from an audi brochure or a shop mechanic trying to justify a padded bill.
Frankie
Why the insults?? " the accuracy of the timming depends on the accurate placment of the teeth on the belt".
What about the accurate placment of the cam gears on the cam itself?? You are saying that there is no pretentioning needed because it is a toothed system! You need to look at the BOOK and see how the pro's do it. you should study the book (BENTLEY} it well make sense to you. You really should know what your talking about before you go insulting people.
I wish a genuine AUDI mechanic would step in here and set you straight!
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 9:44:01 AM
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beng
Posts: 88
Joined: 5/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankinstyn
quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
quote:
ORIGINAL: frankinstyn
quote:
ORIGINAL: beng
You did not use a cam lock tool ! Why not? blauparts rents them for a little bit of nothing. So , no crank lock either I'll bet.
Your engine may run ok, but, having not used the locking tools and not pretensioning the belt- there is NO way you have correct timming!
This job is cake compared to changing oil cooler seals on a 4.2. I spent over 1 HR. putting 1 bolt into 1 hole, and then I had to get a wrench on it.
Short cuts are rarely worth it. BENG
Being the engineer and mechanic that I am...I can't let that go. No, the timing is not that touchy. If you have the right teeth of the belt in the right place then no problem. That cam locking tool and the crank locking tools are not necessary. They are simply helpful.
When I did mine (about a month ago at 96,000) I too did not use the cam locking tool. However there is a timing mark on the crank so pretty hard to get that one wrong and I used a 5' strait edge to mark across both cams to make sure those didn't move. In the end that was actually easier to do than use the cam locking tool because of the tightness of the belt. I actually rotated the driver's side cam a little and then rotated it back to make it easier to get the belt on. No problems! No cel and the car started up instantly with no odd noises either when I was done. I didn't notice any increase or better feel after I was done though. I simply drove as it always has.
The timming is not that touchy? No, your car well run just fine without perfect timming. If you want perfect timming use the tools. If close enough is good enough for you, then don't use the tools.
Do you, the engineer understand " pretensioning"the timming belt and why it is essential to accurate and true timming? BENG
Now you're being intentionally dense. The cam and crank lock tools have nothing to do with pretensioning the timing belt. Pretensioning is the placing of the belt under tension so that the friction between the belt and the drive pulley is sufficient to ensure that the belt does not slip against the surface of the pulley. It does not apply in this case because these belts have teeth. In fact, I have yet to see a timing belt that relies soley on the friction of the rubber on the pully. That said, the accuracy of our timing relies on the accurate placement of the teeth on the belt. The use of crank and camshaft locks is not going to improve the accuracy of those teeth.
Think of it this way....lets say you have two gears. They mesh together very well but still have two thousanths inch play when assembled properly. Now what you are stating is that by using the cam and crank locks you can get these teeth to line up so perfectly that the teeth will line up inside each other that each tooth on each gear will not even be touching the two teeth surrounding it. So yes, when you are done it will be perfectly accurrate....until you start spinning these gears. Now the gears will slide on each other (albeit only two thousanths of and inch) until the teech contact each other again...therefore limiting the accurracy back to the accuracy of the machining.
The only way to overcome the limitations of the timing belt is to make the timing belt out of a harder rubber....but even then....my point still stands.
You are also making a big assumption...that the old timing belt did not stretch in the 60-100 thousand miles that it was used and is still keeping your camshaft timing absolutely perfect. If your point of view were valid, you would actually be hurting the timing of the engine by setting the timing with the new belt to the now-off timing caused by the stretching of the old belt. After 3 or 4 timing belt changes you would be off a tooth or more!
Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't use that cam and crank lock. If you don't want to worry about the cams rotating then by all means rent the tool for the nominal fee. I'm simply saying that , if done correctly, you'll be no more inaccurate or accurate by simply marking the crank and camshaft and returing them to those marks as you install the timing belt. Neither method is going to affect the accuracy of the timing when all is said and done.
Don't go throwing out slogans that you're heard in passing from an audi brochure or a shop mechanic trying to justify a padded bill.
Frankie
Why the insults?? " the accuracy of the timming depends on the accurate placment of the teeth on the belt".
What about the accurate placment of the cam gears on the cam itself?? You are saying that there is no pretentioning needed because it is a toothed system! You need to look at the BOOK and see how the pro's do it. you should study the book (BENTLEY} it well make sense to you. You really should know what your talking about before you go insulting people.
I wish a genuine AUDI mechanic would step in here and set you straight!
The cam gears are indepedent from the cams.
proper timming is achieved by, crank pin, cam lok bar in place, cam nuts just loose enough to spin free from camshaft.
next you release tensioner( I believe your supposed to put a specified torque on it) then you tighten cam bolts, remove loks, and your done. THIS IS HOW YOU PRETENSION THESE BELTS ON THESE ENGINES.
If I am wrong please set me straight?
I dont throw out slogans, you are VERY presumtuous, I read the book and I understand it.
l BENG
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 10:50:32 AM
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ppgoal
Posts: 669
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Holland MI
Status: offline
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Guys - just fill the fast reply instead of replying to a specific post. Cuts down on the amount of repeat info.
Kudos to TopGun for doing a tough job himself. Either he's good, lucky, or both because even the pros lock down the cams to make sure nothing drifts. The penalty is not a CEL - it's a valve hitting a piston and then you've screwed the pooch. The fact that they were tired and ruined the serpentine shows how simple things can go wrong.
I've rebuilt one engine and it was a lot simpler than the 2.7T. IMHO, it was well worth the 6 hour labor charge to have someone with experience do it for me.
My blauparts kit came with the following:
- 4 liters Audi antifreeze
- water pump (metal)
- crank seal - main front
- crank seal -cam/dist/tail shaft
- timing belt
- 2 tensioners
- serpentine belt
- thermostat and gasket
I had to buy the timing belt damper. Total cost of the kit and damper was $354.86 in 3/07.
_____________________________
2003 Audi A6 2.7T MT6
Premium Package-Cold Weather Package-Bose
GIAC-Bailey DVs-Samco TBB
AWE Stage 2 Clutch+Lightweight Flywheel
235/45 R17 Pirelli P6 All-season; OEMs
235/40 ZR18 ContiExtremeContact;
Velocity RS4 Replica Rims
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 10:55:46 AM
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frankinstyn
Posts: 151
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Why the insults?? " the accuracy of the timming depends on the accurate placment of the teeth on the belt".
What about the accurate placment of the cam gears on the cam itself?? You are saying that there is no pretentioning needed because it is a toothed system! You need to look at the BOOK and see how the pro's do it. you should study the book (BENTLEY} it well make sense to you. You really should know what your talking about before you go insulting people.
I wish a genuine AUDI mechanic would step in here and set you straight!
You didn't actually say anything here except that you don't believe me and that I need to do it the professional way.....I am a professional.
quote:
The cam gears are indepedent from the cams.
proper timming is achieved by, crank pin, cam lok bar in place, cam nuts just loose enough to spin free from camshaft.
next you release tensioner( I believe your supposed to put a specified torque on it) then you tighten cam bolts, remove loks, and your done. THIS IS HOW YOU PRETENSION THESE BELTS ON THESE ENGINES.
If I am wrong please set me straight?
I dont throw out slogans, you are VERY presumtuous, I read the book and I understand it.
l BENG
I can't make it any clearer than I already have. I'm not being presumptuous. I'm simply trying to clarify how the engine works. I do follow the book but I also know how the engine works and the theories and such behind it. Sometimes the methods in the book are simply to ensure additional safety for a person who might not have studied that subject.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here anymore though. It seems you simply like an argument. Everything you've said is true but doesn't disprove or even affect the explanation that I've given....so I guess I'm done talking to you.
He did do a good job. Congratulations.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 11:01:17 AM
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event
Posts: 48
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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I usually agrue with people online and have done it here once, but after witnessing others do it in such length, I've decided I will check myself from now on, it gets to be ridiculous.
Not calling any of you stupid or incorrect in the slightest, this is just a saying...
Never argue with stupid people. They will bring you down to their levels and beat you with experience.
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RE: Timing Belt Job- success! - 4/28/2008 5:35:37 PM
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Wayne.L
Posts: 73
Joined: 3/25/2008
Status: offline
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c'mon why do everyone like to argue about some small things on every single forum i've been to...anyways...the dealer that I brought my car from can change the timing belt and related components with all OEM one with a totaly cost parts and labour of 600...should I do it there?? It sounds too good of a deal...
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