APR's response to the question...
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6th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,684
From: Columbs, Ohio
APR's response to the question...
"can the dealer tell if you are chipped on the 2.0t flash?" I know most people probably don't care but I thought it was pretty humorous.
First off let me state that we adamantly believe that people should be honest with their dealerships and we would never condone fooling the dealership into warranting parts or labor that failed as a result of performance parts or owner negligence. However, we are just as adamant in our belief that the vehicle owner has the right to modify and personalize their vehicle as they please (while abiding by certain safety standards, of course) without unnecessary hassle and condemnation from the dealership. To that end, we strive to design our products to work seamlessly with the factory diagnostic tools and to work reliably without extending the components to the point of unreliability. We also design our engine electronic programming to NOT set any red flags so as to avoid any unjustified prosecution from over-zealous dealership personnel (for the rare occasion where this may be encountered.) Some of our products are better than others at this (I can think of at least one model where we can make an improvement) but our ME9 2.0T software is very good in this regards.
There have been questions as to whether our programming is the same size as the stock programming or whether we use the same encryption. Firstly, both stock programs and any other program that has or will ever exist is raw unencrypted binary that is read directly by the microprocessor. There is no encryption (at least in this sense.) Regarding whether or not our binary is the same size as stock there are two answers. The first answer would be- yes, of course it is the same size as stock. After all it is being stored on the same EEPROM chip and we cannot physically change the size of the chip. The second, slightly less British, answer to that question would be- yes, of course it is a different size program, how would we be able to add functionality to the program without adding to the software size? (hmm, maybe the first answer was less sarcastic.)
Of course, the answer to the above two questions are really moot. At least I think they are because the last time I went to a car dealership I don't recall seeing any mechanics sitting at a computer terminal hacking microcontroller assembly code. (Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places?) This really confused me after reading several posts on this forum where people stated emphatically that an Audi tech could easily tell the difference between the stock code and any performance code. Then I had a revelation, "Wait these technicians aren't computer science geniuses. They are simply using the FACTORY available tools that are simple enough to be used by the Neanderthals in the film 2001 Space Odyssey." (However, since half of the dealer techs I have met still can't use these tools they clearly didn't set the bar low enough.) The tools have a limited set of functionality. If it ain't in the tool they can't do it.
Fortunately, since these technicians are not doctorate candidates for advanced computer systems, we were able to limit our scope of concern to the available factory tools and the included functionality therein. To this end, we have taken steps to combat all tactics that are currently used that could cause a customer to be wrongfully denied warranty.
Brett
APR
First off let me state that we adamantly believe that people should be honest with their dealerships and we would never condone fooling the dealership into warranting parts or labor that failed as a result of performance parts or owner negligence. However, we are just as adamant in our belief that the vehicle owner has the right to modify and personalize their vehicle as they please (while abiding by certain safety standards, of course) without unnecessary hassle and condemnation from the dealership. To that end, we strive to design our products to work seamlessly with the factory diagnostic tools and to work reliably without extending the components to the point of unreliability. We also design our engine electronic programming to NOT set any red flags so as to avoid any unjustified prosecution from over-zealous dealership personnel (for the rare occasion where this may be encountered.) Some of our products are better than others at this (I can think of at least one model where we can make an improvement) but our ME9 2.0T software is very good in this regards.
There have been questions as to whether our programming is the same size as the stock programming or whether we use the same encryption. Firstly, both stock programs and any other program that has or will ever exist is raw unencrypted binary that is read directly by the microprocessor. There is no encryption (at least in this sense.) Regarding whether or not our binary is the same size as stock there are two answers. The first answer would be- yes, of course it is the same size as stock. After all it is being stored on the same EEPROM chip and we cannot physically change the size of the chip. The second, slightly less British, answer to that question would be- yes, of course it is a different size program, how would we be able to add functionality to the program without adding to the software size? (hmm, maybe the first answer was less sarcastic.)
Of course, the answer to the above two questions are really moot. At least I think they are because the last time I went to a car dealership I don't recall seeing any mechanics sitting at a computer terminal hacking microcontroller assembly code. (Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places?) This really confused me after reading several posts on this forum where people stated emphatically that an Audi tech could easily tell the difference between the stock code and any performance code. Then I had a revelation, "Wait these technicians aren't computer science geniuses. They are simply using the FACTORY available tools that are simple enough to be used by the Neanderthals in the film 2001 Space Odyssey." (However, since half of the dealer techs I have met still can't use these tools they clearly didn't set the bar low enough.) The tools have a limited set of functionality. If it ain't in the tool they can't do it.
Fortunately, since these technicians are not doctorate candidates for advanced computer systems, we were able to limit our scope of concern to the available factory tools and the included functionality therein. To this end, we have taken steps to combat all tactics that are currently used that could cause a customer to be wrongfully denied warranty.
Brett
APR
1st Gear
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 125
From:
RE: APR's response to the question...
Fascinating.
One of my own persistent questions is sort of spoken of peripherally in Brett's answer but only in the sense that the answer begs the question. To wit, if the memory that the ECM program is loaded into is only so big then where does the extra space for multiple programs come from? If you buy, say, two programs from APR that you can switch between by using the cruise control buttons where does all that additional functionality actually live?
I guess I could really just ask them myself, huh?
One of my own persistent questions is sort of spoken of peripherally in Brett's answer but only in the sense that the answer begs the question. To wit, if the memory that the ECM program is loaded into is only so big then where does the extra space for multiple programs come from? If you buy, say, two programs from APR that you can switch between by using the cruise control buttons where does all that additional functionality actually live?
I guess I could really just ask them myself, huh?
3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,646
From:
RE: APR's response to the question...
Techs dont have to be computer geniuses to know if your car is chipped. They just have to drive it. Its fairly obvious when you have been driving the same hp cars for years and then all of a sudden one comes in thats quite a bit faster. No the scan tool wont be pick up whether or not the cars chipped but an audi engineer can. And thats where the ecm will end up if the dealer really wants to be a pain about. Some techs are car guys thou and dont really care if a cars chipped. The problem is its out of their hands. If two or more turbos get blown on one car in a couple of years audi may require that the ecm get shipped with the turbo.
