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K04 turbo capable of 250awhp and fairly cheap....

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K04 turbo capable of 250awhp and fairly cheap....

  #21  
Old 11-19-2012, 07:28 PM
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  #22  
Old 11-20-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by zandrew View Post
I have looked at the frankenturbo setup which is nice but 240awhp looks like its max. The compressor it uses is the SAME as the CX7 turbo. The turbine is what dictates how much hp a setup will make. It is the main limiting factor and most do not understand this concept. What the compressor makes the turbine has got to be able to handle if you are making excess of it limits you will actually lose hp.

The CX7 uses the 42mm inducer and 60 mm exducer. The MS3 which is the turbo I plan on using runs the much larger 46mm inducer and 60mm exducer. This compressor combination is the most widely used in the turbo world. Here is the turbos I personally know that use this sized compressor:

K04 Mazdaspeed 3
TD04H 19T
TD05H small 16G
T3 60 trim
GT2560R
GT2860R (not the RS which is 47.2mm and 60mm)
IHI VF everything (the turbos used on the 2.5 liter for both the legacy and Sti setups)
Forced performance T28
Nissan T28 from the Bluebird 276 hp JDM setups (a bit rare)

and several others I am sure to be forgetting.The limiting factor in all these setups is not the compressor as they majority will make 35lb min +. All of these turbos will make 300awhp with the exception of the TD04H 19T and the T3 60 trim and maybe the K04. The T3 60 trim will actually make the 300awhp but you have to swap the stage 1 turbine for a stage 2 or maybe even a stage 1.5. The K04 I am trying to use should be able to get pretty close but its turbine is on the smallish side though it is the largest of the K04 turbines availible.

The frankenturbo turbine housing and it being limited to stock dimensions is going to limit its overall potential. The AR is just not adequate to be pushed higher into the rev range. They helped a lot by adding a better turbine housing but unchanging the turbine nozzle is what hurts its top end and honestly the stock turbo fattens the bottom end plenty. Its the top end that is lacking. The trade off with turbos is either lots of spool and dcent mid range and non existing top end, decent spool fat mid range and decent top end, or no spool with mild mid range and max hp on the top end. The franken turbo is the first of these 3 options. My proposed MS3 setups should be the second which still will make for a decent daily driver but with a little more added fun then a mildly modified stock setup.

I have dealt with turbos for a long time and I am quite confident that my proposed setup will make more overall hp and have a similar spool time as the Frankenturbo while costing significantly less. A new MS3 turbo can be had for less then $600.

I know this is contigent upon me proving this setup but give me the time and let me get everything else I deem necessary in place and I am sure the results will end up speaking for themself.

My current list of mods is :
Carbonio intake
GHL 2.5" cat back
AWE K04 turbo upgrade with PC16
Forged 007 DV
Snub mount


My list of current mods I am going to do with the turbo upgrade is:
Ignition upgrade (either TSI or 4 prong coil packs)
Big front mount intercooler with Samco tubing
3" test pipe and eliminating the stock Cat
Wideband that I already have
Upgraded turbo manifold
RS4 replica body kit

The car will be painted Triple black and I am going to look for a set of S4 seats and brakes and redo the all the bushings, ball joints, and tie rods. The car will then be finished until I get my second block built and I push for 400awhp.

Something else to note that the dyno posted on their site is using water meth injection to make 240awhp. I think the other dyno is more typical of what you will see at 220awhp. If you notice peak torque drops abroptly around 4500 RPM which is a good indicator that the turbine housing is being overun. If the franken turbo was capable of making the same torque at 5500 as it is at 4500 (240 lb ft) you would be making 251awhp on the setup that is making 221peak awhp. If you could make 220 lb ft at at 6000 RPM you would be making the same 251awhp. The franken turbo is around 190 lb ft at 6000 RPM. AT 6500 if you made 220 lb ft you would be making 272awhp.

My point is that giving up just a little bit of spool can really wake up the top dramatically which is what I am trying to achieve with the larger turbine housing and significantly larger compressor. I really believe that I can make the 270awhp without meth injection so I am pretty sure I will have to upgrade fuel injectors.


OH and I can safely run the Mazdaspeed 3 turbo at 22 psi.
Will you be using K04 programming to run a DD style tune on the MS3 turbo? I get the ins and outs of turbo tuning, but this setup may crack rods with over 300tq on the crank.
 
  #23  
Old 11-23-2012, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunzhine337 View Post
Will you be using K04 programming to run a DD style tune on the MS3 turbo? I get the ins and outs of turbo tuning, but this setup may crack rods with over 300tq on the crank.
I'm going to try and keep the psi in check and I think running it at what my PC16 setup is at right now will it below the 300lbft mark. My K04 015 is only making 15psi when I hammer it and that is around 3500 RPM's so I think if I hit 15psi with this turbo at the same RPM I would still be OK.

I know this build is moving slow but I am buying other supporting parts now to be ready for the swap. I also want to have everything added to the car so I can get a solid comparison between the K04 015, K04 CX7, and K04 MS3. I am not going to use the stock manifold anymore and go with a cheap ebay T3 style for now. It will be easier to adapt the Mazda K04 turbo's too but the route I am taking will also be doable with the stock manifold.

SOmething else I wanted to note. I noticed the other day that the Solstice K04 uses the same type compressor design as the Mazda turbos. They are known too be exceptional spooling turbos with insane power for their size. Here is some turbo size and whp that has been reached.

Mazda CX-7 (42.5mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 261 AWHP and 293 lb ft
Solstice K04 (44.3mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 321 rwhp and 323 lb ft
Mazdaspeed 3 (46.5mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 323fwhp and 331 lb ft
Mazdaspeed 6 (same as MS3) 278 awhp and 302 lb ft

Important to note that exducer is 60mm with extended tips which does count. Also each one of these motors are larger then the 1.8. The Mazdaspeed numbers are a little misleading since that motor stops making power at 5600 RPM due to the ECU shutting the throttle body. If that motor continued to make the same torque at 6500 as it is at 5500 its whp would be well over 350. Also each of these turbos use the largest K04 turbine that I know of which is 50mm inducer and 44.5mm exducer. This will safely allow for additional flow over the K04 015. I strongly believe as long as I don't run into a fueling issue that I will be able to hit 270awhp without any sacrifice to drivability.

Also another thing to note is there is also larger K04 compressors that have been custom made that I could later upgrade too. One being 52mm inducer and 68mm exducer and will flow 45 lb min. That should equate to 350awhp at the very least...
 
  #24  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by zandrew View Post
I'm going to try and keep the psi in check and I think running it at what my PC16 setup is at right now will it below the 300lbft mark. My K04 015 is only making 15psi when I hammer it and that is around 3500 RPM's so I think if I hit 15psi with this turbo at the same RPM I would still be OK.

I know this build is moving slow but I am buying other supporting parts now to be ready for the swap. I also want to have everything added to the car so I can get a solid comparison between the K04 015, K04 CX7, and K04 MS3. I am not going to use the stock manifold anymore and go with a cheap ebay T3 style for now. It will be easier to adapt the Mazda K04 turbo's too but the route I am taking will also be doable with the stock manifold.

SOmething else I wanted to note. I noticed the other day that the Solstice K04 uses the same type compressor design as the Mazda turbos. They are known too be exceptional spooling turbos with insane power for their size. Here is some turbo size and whp that has been reached.

Mazda CX-7 (42.5mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 261 AWHP and 293 lb ft
Solstice K04 (44.3mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 321 rwhp and 323 lb ft
Mazdaspeed 3 (46.5mm inducer and 60mm exducer) 323fwhp and 331 lb ft
Mazdaspeed 6 (same as MS3) 278 awhp and 302 lb ft

Important to note that exducer is 60mm with extended tips which does count. Also each one of these motors are larger then the 1.8. The Mazdaspeed numbers are a little misleading since that motor stops making power at 5600 RPM due to the ECU shutting the throttle body. If that motor continued to make the same torque at 6500 as it is at 5500 its whp would be well over 350. Also each of these turbos use the largest K04 turbine that I know of which is 50mm inducer and 44.5mm exducer. This will safely allow for additional flow over the K04 015. I strongly believe as long as I don't run into a fueling issue that I will be able to hit 270awhp without any sacrifice to drivability.

Also another thing to note is there is also larger K04 compressors that have been custom made that I could later upgrade too. One being 52mm inducer and 68mm exducer and will flow 45 lb min. That should equate to 350awhp at the very least...
Looks good but you may want to run a 4bar FPR and have a high flow pump installed. Be careful with the ebay T3 kit as well. They crack fairly easily. Are the MS3 turbo's a K04 3 bolt fitment like our stock manifolds or do they run a T3 fitting?
 
  #25  
Old 11-23-2012, 01:17 PM
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They run neither bolt pattern. They run what looks like a T3 width on the top 2 bolts and T25 on the bottom two bolts but none of them are equally spaced. What I am going to do is weld either a T3 or T25 flange on to the turbo so that I can bolt it on. That or try to find a blank flange and weld it then adapt the stock bolt pattern. I would really like to try the stock manifold. I think with a little porting it would do just fine.

I am upgrading the fuel setup as well.
 
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