I have never own a Audi A4 but I have been in love with the Euro cars since my first car (which was 64 Bug)and my top 3 cars being Alfa Romeo GTV, BMW 320is, and VW Type III notchback. I like the A4 setup being 5 speed, turbo 4 cylinder, and all wheel drive. I like the look and feel of these cars as well having drove a couple but they were V6 models. Anyway my back ground is mostly older Toyota models like the early MR2 and AE86 which I have had fun wih but I guess this is a sign of growing up, well some what.

Anyway I was wanting some opinions and I am not new to forums and already know I am going to hear search but the fact is I work obscene hours and rarely have time to look online so opening a dedicated thread pertaining to my questions makes things so much easier.

Here goes:

Is there any major worthwhile benfits of buying the B6 A4 over the B5 A4?
How much hp can the stock motor SAFELY handle?
How much hp can the stock AWD trans setup handle?
Whats a fair price for B5 4 cylinder 5 speed quattro in good condition?


My ultimate goals would be to do some tasteful mods that would bring the whp around 220 or so. I already know this will include a turbo swap or upgrade but I have actually been building turbos (given that I am certified machinist) for quite sometime. It just happens to be a fact that the Mazdaspeed Ko4 compressor can be made to fin as well as the turbine (with some machining of course). I actually have both a K)4 from a CX-7 and K04 from MS3 which are fairly close in size but different. They CSX-7 uses a smaller compressor.

Please be respectful with answering my questions. I am not a younger person nor am I new to modifying cars, just new to A4's.

Thanks

 

Welcome to AF!

To answer your questions:

1. That's a pretty widely subjective and debated topic in the Audi community. Some people say the B6 is much more refined, easier to tune, and looks better. I personally disagree, but it's all up to you. There are plenty of tuning options for both platforms and I've always been fond of the B5's looks, fit, and finish over that of the B6. JM2C.

2. Not sure I understand the question. If you mean a completely stock car with stock motor, turbo, exhaust, etc., you'll probably max out right around the 200hp mark with a "stage 1" K03 tune. Depending on the mileage on the clutch, motor mounts, turbo, etc. The K03 itself can flow much more air than that, but not without running it at like 30+psi. There's a guy on here who actually did that by the name of Mike Hood. If you just mean the stock engine internals, you'll be ok up to about 350-400hp with a CONSERVATIVE tune. I capitalized that because HP doesn't break rods, torque does. If you get crazy with the boost and torque you'll snap a rod in no time.

3. Barring worn out CV joints and chipped teeth on any of the gears, it's good to 700+ HP

4. Depends on mileage, but I wouldn't pay more than $5k. I DID pay more than $5k for mine, but nobody SHOULD lol.

For those horsepower goals, I suggest you start researching a company called Frankenturbo. They specialize in KKK K04 hybrid turbos that are cheap and more than capable of making HP in the high 200's.

Hope that helps! Feel free to post up any more questions you have, just keep them in this thread so we can all follow them.

 

Bigger question why would you drive an Audi and not keep the AE86 !

 

I would say that its about taste.... I always like the B5 more and honestly B6 tail lights sucks.... dunno why but I hate them! The B6 interior is more like luxury and more limo style when the B5 has a sporty look (at least mine does). I can tell you that I can beat a B6 Sport (190 HP) with my B5 Sport (180 HP) with a lot of difference....

CCA4 how much did you say the quattro can handle??? 700 HP? Seriously??? I have the A4 Sport...can it handle that much???? I would say more like 400 HP.... not sure though..give me your lights....

 

The quattro drivetrain is extremely well built. With a stronger clutch and upgraded motor/trans/diff mounts the stock trans, differentials and axles are easily capable of 700hp. Mike hood started blowing up transmissions and differentials at around 800awhp if I recall.

The stock internals are good to about 350hp with a good tune. If the torque spikes too quickly or you run lean at WOT, it doesn't take much to snap a rod.

 

If I put 800 WHP on my car I will get in an accident on the first 30 secs :P thanks for the nicely put answer... I am thinking for a stage 2 or 1 at February when i get back from my ship.... so.. I will keep that in mind...

 

Who said I was letting it go? However I will forewarn anyone about the AE86, it is simply a fad. For me I like the 4AGE motor it came with being the first mass produced belt driven 16 valve 4 cylinder from Japan. If you look at the 4AGE you will quickly see where the B16 idea arose from. The AE86 however is NOT what its made out to be. They rust out almost overnight. The trans can barely handle stock HP levels WITHOUT spirited driving. The rear end lets go around 150whp. Parts are impossible to find in good condition. The first generation MR2 is really 3x better. Its faster and handles light years better being mid engined. They are cheaper and more plentiful. The only problem is that you can't get more then one passenger in them. I want the A$ for a winter and daily driver especially while I am restoring my AE86 and upgrading the trans to W50 and also upgrading the rear end. I am shooting for 300whp with a turbo 4AGE in it.

Back to the A4.

My mods that I have in mind are your typical supporting mods; intake, intercooling plumbing, downpipe, exhaust, TUNE, and modified turbo. I mentioned that I modify and rebuild turbos so going to franken turbo would be an utter waste and given some of the the turbo transformations I have done. I really want to stuff the K04 from the MS3 into the A4. I should not lose spool by much and they will flow 36lb min. The smaller CX-7 turbo will flow 30 lb min but at these levels you are really pushing the turbine hard the stub shaft on the K03/K04 turbines is teeny tiny.

WHat kills me about turbos and people looking at them is that they make poorly based assumptions. Boost has very little to do with making hp. It has to do with flow and efficency and you HAVE to take into account the turbines efficiency as well. If the compressor is to large you will create pumping loss and you will lose hp. I have seen it time and time again with the old craptastic T3 turbos with stage 1 turbines. A specific example is a chap that had T3 60 trim with .48 AR exhaust housing. He made 257 whp at 14psi. He assumed that by turning up the psi to 20 psi hw owuld make 50% more hp (which really shows how silly he was). When he did he eneded up making 248whp peak. After wondering about it he asked me and I explained pumping loss to him. There is more to turbos then simply turning the boost up anbd making hp. I would specualte the 30psi on K03 would not last long and would be so far off the efficiency map that he would need meth injection and damn good intercooling setup and something better then pump gas.

Anyway my goals for the A4 would be to make 250whp and have a fun and streetable car that I can still drive in the snow and not worry about it rotting out on me.

New question- how easy can the ECU be tuned? WHat is the best and most price efficient method?

Thanks

 

My friend has a 4age silver top 20v, much better than the 16v but still a **** engine. Swap it tho, the only benefit i have ever seen of a JDM of a Euro car is a swap. We did a 3sgte swap on his all-trac. 4age in his celica, about to rebuild a k20 in an RSX. Its just so friggen easy to work on it makes me hate my AUdi....until I drive it then realize it wasn't put together with toothpicks and feels solid when you drive it. I would never trade my Audi for an AE86 but if I had one It would probably have an Audi engine in it .


As for tuning the ecu, the only method is Chip tuning, check out speed tuning(cheapest and comparable) GIAC, APR. Unless you go standalone or Maestro. They make K04 maps so get a k04 get all the supporting mods and chip it and your golden.

 

I'm aware of this, I was just trying to help.

I never said it was a good idea for a daily driver, only that it had been done. Mike did it just to see what a K03 was capable of, and I believe he broke said turbo in pretty short order

For a K04-based hybrid, you're going to have fairly limited OTS tuning options. GIAC offers a fairly aggressive tune called a PC-16 or "hammer" file that was written for K04's (thanks MetalMan ). Eurodyne Maestro is a very awesome tune-it-yourself suite that comes with a base file and allows you to tweak things like boost maps and injector duty cycle to fine tune it to your setup. However it'll run you at least $800, a little steep for a K04 tune IMO.

I think your best bet would be to go with a remote tuning suite from a company like Motoza or J-Fonz Tuning. Similar to Eurodyne, you start with a base file but instead of doing the tweaking yourself, you send log output back to the company and they tweak your tune and email you a new one which you then flash yourself. Depending on the options you choose like coding out O2 sensors or emissions components, you can get yourself into a nice tune that way for ~$500.

 

Last summer I got PC-16 direct from GIAC, and they still list it on their website:
GIAC - Software Programs
PC-16 is for AEB engines, but I'm not sure if GIAC still offers the aggressive K04 files for ATW and AWM engines.