Secondary Air Injection System: Insufficient Flow in Bank 1 and Bank 2 - AudiForums.com
AudiForums.com

Go Back   AudiForums.com > Audi Models > Audi A6
Search

Audi A6 The mid-sized Audi A6 model offers more room to the driver and passengers over the A4 line.



Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 05-17-2012, 12:45 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default Secondary Air Injection System: Insufficient Flow in Bank 1 and Bank 2

Audi Guru's,

I have a 2001 Audi A6 with a 2.7T engine (65,000 miles) that recently fell victim to the following fault codes:

2 Faults Found:
17831 - Secondary Air Injection System; Bank 1: Insufficient Flow
P1423 - 35-00 - -
17819 - Secondary Air Injection System; Bank 2: Insufficient Flow
P1411 - 35-00 - -
Readiness: 0000 0000

In following up with a local Audi mechanic, he suggested starting with replacing the air pump as the fault is in both banks and the secondary air hose (part 17 in this diagram http://www.audiusaparts.com/parts/20...iagram=1351162) doesn't look cracked. Per his advice, I moved forward and replaced the secondary air pump with a brand new pump shipped straight from Bosch.

After the pump was replaced, the high-pitch noise (I suspect it was bearing going out in the secondary air pump) dissipated and it sounded like a hair dryer (the way it should) during a cold start. However, the fault came back after two cold starts.

Although these faults only regulate emissions and don't affect driving performance, I would like to get the fault cleared so the Check Engine Light (CEL) isn't staring at me every time I hit the road. My question for you Audi guru's is what would you replace next?

I was thinking about replacing the hose that connects to the secondary air pump (part 17 in the above link) as when I reconnected this hose back to the new pump it had a very loose connection. I tried putting a wire tie on it to see if I could keep the fault off but that didn't work (although the wire tie didn't look like it sealed the hose any better in all honestly). I do also remember that when I pulled this hose off the original pump it was very tight and took me a while to get off. For anyone who has replaced this pump, was this hose loose when connecting it to the new pump and did you end up replacing it? Also, if your recommendation is to replace this hose, is the procedure pretty straight forward? The rubber T branches the hose off to the right and left and it looks like some parts may have to be removed to get the old one out and the new one in.

I also noticed on the Rosstech site http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...1/P1423/005155 that they state it could be the fuse or the solenoids. I am curious if anyone has experienced the solenoids or fuse going out to cause this fault? Although I haven't checked the fuse, I didn't suspect it was this because the problem was intermittent (I can generally get one successful cold start before the fault is reproduced). If you suspect it may be the Solenoids, please let me know how to check them.

Thank you in advance for all replies.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-17-2012, 01:34 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 107
Default

If it's so loose that it's leaking badly, try putting a hose clamp on it? Just don't over-tighten - you don't want to crack the new pump...
Jim
__________________
2001 Audi A6 C5 2.7t 6 speed
1989 Maserati 2.2l 16V 5speed Getrag TC
1989 Maserati 2.2l Turbo II TC
1986 F250 1-ton IH 6.9l TurboDiesel
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-17-2012, 02:51 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default

Eejimm,

Thank you for the recommendation. I will try that prior to replacing the hose. Have you heard of many having this caused by the fuse or solenoids? Also, would you know how to test the Solenoids?

Thanks for the reply.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-17-2012, 04:29 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 23
Default

I went down the same path with my SAI pump. I tried replacing the relay thinking that it was not even running and that didn't solve it.

I would suggest first checking to see if you have vacuum at the two rubber hoses connected to the combination valves at the back of each cylinder. it seems that vacuum is not being applied to the valves and they are not opening up, so no matter how much air the pump moves it is not getting where it needs to go so that the sensor sees it and doesn't trip a code. Either that, or both of your combi valves stopped working at the same time?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-21-2012, 06:22 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default

I recently replaced the wire tie with a hose clamp and then had my hand on the rubber T hose to attempt and feel if any air was leaking out as someone started the car. It did not feel like any air was leaking and the Check Engine Light (CEL) didn't trigger so it appeared to have passed that test. I then started the car for a second cold start (I heard the pump kick in) and went for a long drive without the fault reoccurring.

However, after starting the car this morning (3rd cold start since the hose clamp), I put the car into reserve after the pump turned off and about 10 seconds later the CEL illuminated. The interesting thing is that when I had cleared the fault a few weeks ago (after placing the wire tie on the rubber T tube) the CEL occurred when I was in reserve after the 3rd cold start.

Does anyone have any hypothesis why I can get a few cold starts after clearing the fault as well as why the fault illuminates the CEL about 10 seconds after the pump stops? Additionally, threeputtpar how did you test if you had vaccum on the two hoses going into the back of the engine?

Thanks again for all the replies.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:58 AM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default

Audi Guru's,

One other question that I had when placing the hose back onto the Secondary Air Pump was how far the hose should be put onto the pump's nozzle. As shown in the below linked picture (and attached) there are two ridges and then two taller nubs at the back of the nozzle. Is the hose supposed to fit all the way over the two nubs in the back or just the two little ridges before the nubs? I only put the hose around the two little ridges as I thought if it went over the two nubs in the back that it would leak around them (as there are gaps in the nubs around the nozzle).

Thanks

Click the image to open in full size.
Attached Thumbnails
Secondary Air Injection System: Insufficient Flow in Bank 1 and Bank 2-pump.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:02 AM
hxgaser's Avatar
3rd Gear

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,973
Default

The hose should have a plastic pinch clip. The clip should click. Also the end of the hose should butt the plastic tab.

As for the vacuum lines, just trace the line from each combi valve to an actuator. It will look something like this.

Click the image to open in full size.

Just replace the vacuum hose.

Most of the SAI incorrect flow codes are effects of broken vacuum lines.
__________________
2004 V70R M66 - Current
2001 A6 Avant - Past
2.8 ATQ, Quattro, Tiptronic
Mods - Was chipped, but not now... Was using K&N, but not now...
Repairs - Too many to list! And you wonder why I still drive an Audi So I don't drive one now.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:05 AM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pologoped2 View Post
I recently replaced the wire tie with a hose clamp and then had my hand on the rubber T hose to attempt and feel if any air was leaking out as someone started the car. It did not feel like any air was leaking and the Check Engine Light (CEL) didn't trigger so it appeared to have passed that test. I then started the car for a second cold start (I heard the pump kick in) and went for a long drive without the fault reoccurring.

However, after starting the car this morning (3rd cold start since the hose clamp), I put the car into reserve after the pump turned off and about 10 seconds later the CEL illuminated. The interesting thing is that when I had cleared the fault a few weeks ago (after placing the wire tie on the rubber T tube) the CEL occurred when I was in reserve after the 3rd cold start.

Does anyone have any hypothesis why I can get a few cold starts after clearing the fault as well as why the fault illuminates the CEL about 10 seconds after the pump stops? Additionally, threeputtpar how did you test if you had vaccum on the two hoses going into the back of the engine?

Thanks again for all the replies.
Have you checked the fuse? located inside the ecu box below the windshield wipers on driver side. It is a big fuse I believe 40. Mine blew along with the ecu.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:59 AM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default

Hxgaser,

When you mentioned a plastic clip that clicks, are you referring to the clip on the end of each of the plastic tubes that go into the engine exhaust ports? Per the attached diagram, I am referring to the two tubes that branch to both export ports in part # 17. Thank you as well for confirming that the rubber T tube should butt up against the plastic tabs on the back of the air pump (as this is what I have done).

Additionally, when you state "actuator" is the Solenoid the same thing? If so, is there only one of these on the 2001 a6 2.7T and where is it located? I found this repair guide http://www.vaglinks.com/Docs/Audi/C5...aintenance.pdf for an A8 4.2L engine but am not sure if it is the same setup as my 2001 A6 2.7T engine. Prior to seeing this repair guide I was under the impression that the only hoses involved in the Secondary Air Injection System were part 17 in the attached pictures. However, now it looks like other hoses are involved and may be the culprit. Additionally, if there is only one actuator/Solenoid and this went out, it would make sense why both banks are reporting the fault. However, if there are two actuators/Solenoids I don't suspect this is the issue as it would be quite rare for both of them to go out at the same time.

Budhani786, I have not checked the fuse yet and I should (seeing how this would take less than 5 minutes), however given the symptoms in that I can get 1 to 2 cold starts without a fault, I wouldn't suspect it is a blown fuse. If the fuse were blown I would expect the CEL to illuminate after the first cold start when the fault is cleared.

Thanks again for all the replies.
Attached Thumbnails
Secondary Air Injection System: Insufficient Flow in Bank 1 and Bank 2-diagram.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:02 AM
hxgaser's Avatar
3rd Gear

 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,973
Default

Actuator=solenoid... My bad. It is located pretty much underneath the y-pipe, back of the intake slightly to the passenger side. You should see an wire connector going to the top and a vacuum line going to it. Both the combination valves at the rear of the heads are controlled by this solenoid. If the vacuum line from the solenoid to the combination valves is damaged, the you will get that code. Also check the vacuum line from the solenoid to the source, which is the vacuum reservoir.

As for the clips, I was referring to a 2.8 set up, which has plastic clips attached to the hose. For 2.7, a hose clamp... Just push the hose until the end butts the tabs.

You may find the post #8 on this thread interesting...

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1723357
__________________
2004 V70R M66 - Current
2001 A6 Avant - Past
2.8 ATQ, Quattro, Tiptronic
Mods - Was chipped, but not now... Was using K&N, but not now...
Repairs - Too many to list! And you wonder why I still drive an Audi So I don't drive one now.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-24-2012, 06:50 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pologoped2 View Post
Hxgaser,


Budhani786, I have not checked the fuse yet and I should (seeing how this would take less than 5 minutes), however given the symptoms in that I can get 1 to 2 cold starts without a fault, I wouldn't suspect it is a blown fuse. If the fuse were blown I would expect the CEL to illuminate after the first cold start when the fault is cleared.

Thanks again for all the replies.
No disrespect, but this is absolutely wrong. My pump is bad and the fuse is blown. The CEL illuminates after 2-3 cold ignitions. And since this pump is only for emissions purposes i left the fuse blown and i clear the code every 3 weeks or so. and it comes back after the 2nd or 3rd cold start.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:30 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4
Default

Would SAI cause it hesitate and stutter in 1st and 2nd gear. In a 2003 A6 3.0? Or is that a whole different issue.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:35 AM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bewegung Durch Audi View Post
Would SAI cause it hesitate and stutter in 1st and 2nd gear. In a 2003 A6 3.0? Or is that a whole different issue.
No. The pump is only On for one minute on cold starts.
Check your car for codes.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-15-2012, 02:24 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
Exclamation 01 Audi A6 Quattro 2.7T need help

I am having a problem with my 2001 Audi A6 Quattro 2.7T, it has over 200k miles and i bought it 6 months ago.. about 2 months ago it started making a really loud sound with the cold start which after reading this forum im guessing its a SAI pump 3 days ago the check engine light came on and it was P1411 and p1423 which is secondary air injection system bank 1 and 2 insufficent flow. We cleared it and it didnt come back on until this morning when i started my car it didnt make the loud noise at all which only lasts about 20 seconds tops when it did make the sound and there is the word FUSE above my mileage. I have looked all over the internet for the FUSE that deals with this problem and ive seen 40 which in my car says HORN has nothing to deal with the pump. I need to know what to do. Replace the pump? How do i find this fuse? and what will it say on the panel? Please someone help me out before i go spend tons of money tryna get this fixed! Anyone with the exact same problem on the exact same car? THANK YOU!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-15-2012, 02:53 PM
1st Gear

 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chicago
Posts: 69
Your Mom Your Mom Linkedin Your Mom Your Mom Your Mom
Default Ahhhh the amazing Kombi issue

The reason your SAI Pump went out was because of water vapor damage. Water vapor gets into the pump because your Kombi valve(s) got full of carbon build up & crap that keep them stuck open.

The Kombi valve is like a one way vacuum check valve to let air through the SAI Air Pump into the engine on a cold start to heat the cats. Air should be able to be pumped in but not let out.

Therefore, when combustion occurs it does produce water vapor that is forced out of the Kombi valve and into your SAI Pump which degraded the bearings & killed the pump (via the dentist drill noise)

Change both Kombi's, SAI Air Pump & the hose that connects them together (can be fabricated to save $$$)

With these codes you can't pass emissions but it wont affect performance too much. Causes a slight nearly unnoticeable stutter at idle, allows unwanted hydrocarbons to enter the air during a cold start up & could ruin a cat in long term situations. All very minor.

I have a 2000 2.7T, I fixed this on my car & have done the job at least 10 times before. I sent my pump to Cardone for some R & R rather than spend $400 for a new one. Another option that I am going to do myself at some point is to remove the damn SAI system, gut my cats (adds HP), move the O2's to trick the ECU & flash the SAI system from my ECU. Its only used at cold starts to reduce emissions that are higher when the cats aren't heated up to op temp, so F*** it!

Last edited by TheFrostyArab; 08-15-2012 at 03:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:45 AM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 18
Default Resolved

Thank you everyone for the replies! Hxgaser is the winner on this one as it ended up being the very small Vacuum hose connected to the T-connector (part 16) in this diagram 2001 AUDI A6 QUATTRO Parts - AudiUSAParts.com.

This hose was quite difficult to access and because of its small size, it was a pain to get the old one off and the new one on. I delayed posting a reply as I wanted to ensure that the problem didn't resurface and in Minnesota we had about 90 degree weather consistently up until recently so the pump wasn't kicking in. However, I have been driving it now for a couple of months (2 weeks with cold weather) and the CEL hasn't illuminated. One thing I did find interesting is I don't hear the hair dryer noise anymore when I start the car. I wonder if this is because that noise was caused by the leak in the Vacuum line.

In any event, thank you all for the posts, I believe this issue is put to bed and hopefully I can enjoy my Audi again for sometime before the next adventure :-).

Thanks again
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-16-2013, 09:17 AM
2nd Gear

 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,052
Kraftwerk Turbo vtraudt
Send a message via AIM to vtraudt Send a message via Yahoo to vtraudt Send a message via Skype™ to vtraudt
Default Remove SAI secondary air injection system

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFrostyArab View Post
Another option that I am going to do myself at some point is to remove the damn SAI system, gut my cats (adds HP), move the O2's to trick the ECU & flash the SAI system from my ECU. Its only used at cold starts to reduce emissions that are higher when the cats aren't heated up to op temp, so F*** it!
I hate those (and the corrugated PCV hoses that always break, and the "Y-pump" piece that fails and pressurizes the crank, etc.)

Have you removed the 'damn SAI system' yet?
Any good DIY you can point to?

All my cars have cats removed, rear O2 tuned out, stage 1 or stage 2 tunes.
__________________
1998 Audi A4 1.8T Quattro, dark blue, K03/K04+ hybrid, Carbonio CAI, APR Inlet Tubes, APR R1 diverter, GIAC PC16, 31lb inj, 20x6x2.75 FMIC, 185 g/s MAF flow, DP 'sport cat, Milltek CB Exh, Podi Boost Gauge, 17" OZ F1 225/45-17, PowerSlot, Hawk Pads, SB Stage III clutch; 1996 Audi A 2.8 Quattro auto, stock, 2002 AR 6 spd lower wider Stg2 cust
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-29-2013, 10:14 PM
1st Gear
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3
Default

Been reading about your problems with your SAI system. I have the same codes on my 2003 A6 + code 17862- short to ground on oxy temp sensor 1. Curious to know if you ever found the fix for your CEL. What was the problem? C/bob
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply


Tags
06, 27t, 8d0853964bgru, a6, air, audi, audib7blackgrill, bank, code, connect, injection, injector, kombi, secondary, sys, system


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
P0411 Secondary Air Injection System Incorrect Flow Detected jafferman B6 Models 11 05-06-2013 06:32 PM
2000 A6 2.8 Quattro Bank 1 Air Flow Jpadguy Audi A6 0 08-03-2012 01:21 PM
P1423 Bank 1 Air Flow Too Low Deekster22 Audi A6 1 01-12-2010 12:53 PM
Secondary air injection system:Incorrect flow detected. icepl Audi A6 2 07-04-2009 08:42 PM
air injection bank 1? coachgreen33 Audi A6 2 04-23-2009 03:40 PM

 
Advertising
Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory
Our Sponsors
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:24 PM.

Internet Brands, Inc.
Emails Backup