Audi A5 Gearbox trouble
#1
06-24-2019, 11:09 AM
Audi A5 Gearbox trouble
I have a 2013 Audi A5 2.0TFSI Quattro with 89000Km's and a full service history from the dealership (last service done 2000km's ago). About 6 weeks ago I got a warning indicating a gearbox problem but still safe to drive. I opted not to as I didnt want to take the risk. I got home and phoned my local dealer, Audi Centre, and arranged for a flat bed to take the vehicle to the dealer. They used their diagnostic tool and it apparently indicated a problem with the megatronics unit. It was advised that the unit must be replaced. As I had an extended warranty which covered majority of the job I agreed for the work to go ahead. After another 2 weeks the dealership contacted me and said that there was still now an issue inside the gearbox of an mechanical nature which they didn't pick up in the initial assessment. I asked if they can tell me exactly what the problem is and what caused it and they said not without opening the gearbox. They couldn't really tell me how the megatronics unit failed either. Initially it was said it failed as electronic systems may fail, like computers. After the installation of the new megatronics and the persistent problem within the gearbox it was said that mechanical failure caused the problems with the megatronics. I was provided with another estimate of $5000 to fix the gearbox ??? My question is very simple - What caused my Audi with 89000 Km's and maintained as required to have a complete gearbox failure ??? Please can someone shed some light
#2
06-25-2019, 05:41 PM
Is it a 6-speed S-tronic transmission? VW/Audi has had lots of problems with them in the past, but should be ok by the 2013 model year.
Dealers are incentivized to squeeze every last dollar out of you (especially since they don't make any money on warranty repairs) I'd take the car to an independent mechanic who works on VW/Audi's for a second opinion.
There are four major parts to the transmission. Mechatronics, dual mass flywheel, clutch, and the internal gears. When DMF fails, you can hear a metal rattling in a tin can sound when idling or accelerating. When the clutch fails, it slips or you get harsh shifts. When the mechatronics fail, you get harsh shifts and/or hesitation. It's very unlikely the internal gears are messed up since it's basically a manual transmission design and is quite strong. All but the internal gears can be replaced indepedently without getting a brand new transmission. Most dealers and mechanics only want to replace the whole thing for around $5000 - 6000. More profit and less risk to them of an incorrect diagnosis.
That said, it is possible that the clutch got burned up, and the resulting burnt-off material flowed throughout the transmssion without being filtered out by the filter. When that happens, the metal shavings clogg up the mechatronics so the initial diagnosis is a failed mechatronics. However, if you just pop in a new mechatronics, but the internals are still filled with metal shavings, it would clogg up the new mechatronics and you're back to square one. A good dealer should've seen the metal shavings the moment they opened up the transmission to replace the mechatronics, and should have stopped right there and tell you not to bother replacing the mechatronics.
The 7-speed S-tronic has a dry clutch so it can't containminate the internal fluids/mechatronics.
Have you replaced the transmission fluid religiously or even ealier than required? If regular maintenance was done correctly, with the correct oil and filter, then it may just come down to bad luck. Some S-tronics have overheating problems, but that only occurs if you track the car or are in stop-n-go traffic in very hot weather. And even then, the computer has safety protocols to prevent damage when that happens.
Finally, if your extended warranty covers the mechatronics, it should cover the entire transmission. So you shouldn't have to pay for a new transmission if your warranty covers it.
Dealers are incentivized to squeeze every last dollar out of you (especially since they don't make any money on warranty repairs) I'd take the car to an independent mechanic who works on VW/Audi's for a second opinion.
There are four major parts to the transmission. Mechatronics, dual mass flywheel, clutch, and the internal gears. When DMF fails, you can hear a metal rattling in a tin can sound when idling or accelerating. When the clutch fails, it slips or you get harsh shifts. When the mechatronics fail, you get harsh shifts and/or hesitation. It's very unlikely the internal gears are messed up since it's basically a manual transmission design and is quite strong. All but the internal gears can be replaced indepedently without getting a brand new transmission. Most dealers and mechanics only want to replace the whole thing for around $5000 - 6000. More profit and less risk to them of an incorrect diagnosis.
That said, it is possible that the clutch got burned up, and the resulting burnt-off material flowed throughout the transmssion without being filtered out by the filter. When that happens, the metal shavings clogg up the mechatronics so the initial diagnosis is a failed mechatronics. However, if you just pop in a new mechatronics, but the internals are still filled with metal shavings, it would clogg up the new mechatronics and you're back to square one. A good dealer should've seen the metal shavings the moment they opened up the transmission to replace the mechatronics, and should have stopped right there and tell you not to bother replacing the mechatronics.
The 7-speed S-tronic has a dry clutch so it can't containminate the internal fluids/mechatronics.
Have you replaced the transmission fluid religiously or even ealier than required? If regular maintenance was done correctly, with the correct oil and filter, then it may just come down to bad luck. Some S-tronics have overheating problems, but that only occurs if you track the car or are in stop-n-go traffic in very hot weather. And even then, the computer has safety protocols to prevent damage when that happens.
Finally, if your extended warranty covers the mechatronics, it should cover the entire transmission. So you shouldn't have to pay for a new transmission if your warranty covers it.
#3
07-28-2019, 04:58 PM
Twelve months ago, I purchased a new A5 2.0 TFSI Quattro with a 7 speed S-Tronic gearbox. After just six days and 250km, the gearbox warning light came on. The selling dealer diagnosed a failed controller for the Mechatronic unit and quoted one and a half weeks for the warranty replacement. I argued for a new vehicle to replace the faulty car, but lost....
After five weeks, I got the A5 back. I noticed a growl in the lower gears, but convinced myself that after five weeks the dealer must have gotten it to where it should be. The growl is speed sensitive, changing as the gears change and not present after the box changes from third to fourth.
This growl worried me for six months until finally I took the car back to the dealer who checked the gearbox and told me everything was OK.
I complained about the noise again at the twelve month service and was told that the noise is normal and comes from a lube pump.
Is there a lube pump in the gearbox?
Is the growl in gears 1 to 3 “normal “?
After five weeks, I got the A5 back. I noticed a growl in the lower gears, but convinced myself that after five weeks the dealer must have gotten it to where it should be. The growl is speed sensitive, changing as the gears change and not present after the box changes from third to fourth.
This growl worried me for six months until finally I took the car back to the dealer who checked the gearbox and told me everything was OK.
I complained about the noise again at the twelve month service and was told that the noise is normal and comes from a lube pump.
Is there a lube pump in the gearbox?
Is the growl in gears 1 to 3 “normal “?
#4
07-31-2019, 02:26 AM
If your car didn't have the noise before they did something to it, and now it's making a new noise, then it is not normal. Just test drive another car with the same transmission. Recrd a video of both your car with the noise and the test-drive car without the noise. There is your proof. If its a new car and Audi is reponsible for the warranty, contact Audi directly and tell them the dealer refuse to help you. Or you can try another dealer.
See this document: https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=759171 (pg. 37)
There is a hydraulic pump inside the mechatronics. It could be:
Lots of dealers, especially when under new car warranty, do not want to repair your car. They get paid less from Audi than if they charge you out of warranty. So for the same transmission work, for example, Audi may pay them $1000 for labor only, but they can charge $6000 for parts+profit+labor if you pay. So the tactic is to delay until you're out of warranty, then charge you the full rate.
See this document: https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=759171 (pg. 37)
There is a hydraulic pump inside the mechatronics. It could be:
- the new mechatronics is bad (especially if it's an used/refurbished unit),
- the mechanic didn't install the mechatronics properly (did not torque EXACTLY to specifications),
- they didn't fill the transmission fluids correctly (too low/too high/wrong type), or
- they didn't reset the transmission computer (basic settings) after the repair.
Lots of dealers, especially when under new car warranty, do not want to repair your car. They get paid less from Audi than if they charge you out of warranty. So for the same transmission work, for example, Audi may pay them $1000 for labor only, but they can charge $6000 for parts+profit+labor if you pay. So the tactic is to delay until you're out of warranty, then charge you the full rate.
#5
07-31-2019, 01:41 PM
Hi findalex
Thanks for your prompt and detailed reply. The tutorial document was very informative. I understand the workings of the gearbox much better now.
I’ve had the car from new. Since I had it for such a short time (6 days) and then was driving a new A4 loan car for a long time before I got the A5 back, I cannot remember if the noise was there before the failure. I doubt it though, since I think I would have noticed it.... Perhaps I hear it now because I am sensitive to gearbox noise!
The dealer did provide me with a new A5, but the MY19 update, to test drive for comparison, whilst mine had its 12 month service. First drive of the loan A5 in the morning there was a very faint noise similar to the noise in my car, but it quickly went away and was not evident when the gearbox warmed up (or maybe it was when the hydraulic pressure got up to operating level?). In my car, it is present whenever the lower gears are selected. After reading the tutorial, I’m wondering if the common factor is output shaft 1.
Obviously, I cannot tell if any of the possible reasons you have listed are the culprit/s. However, I would be a bit surprised if they would have installed a used or refurbished Mech in a brand new car.
The dealer said that Audi techs told them it was the lube pump and is normal. Since I see that both lube pumps are electrically driven, I cannot understand why the so called noise in my car is speed related and changes as the gears change. Could it be a misalignment of the selector fork or synchro ring? I’ll try to make a recording of the noise.
Audi Australia have been totally unhelpful. They are the ones who flatly refused to replace the vehicle and insisted on repair under warranty. Only after a lot of arguing, they extended warranty by an additional two years as a form of compensation, but that is no consolation if I have to accept the noisy growl in the gearbox....
Thanks for your prompt and detailed reply. The tutorial document was very informative. I understand the workings of the gearbox much better now.
I’ve had the car from new. Since I had it for such a short time (6 days) and then was driving a new A4 loan car for a long time before I got the A5 back, I cannot remember if the noise was there before the failure. I doubt it though, since I think I would have noticed it.... Perhaps I hear it now because I am sensitive to gearbox noise!
The dealer did provide me with a new A5, but the MY19 update, to test drive for comparison, whilst mine had its 12 month service. First drive of the loan A5 in the morning there was a very faint noise similar to the noise in my car, but it quickly went away and was not evident when the gearbox warmed up (or maybe it was when the hydraulic pressure got up to operating level?). In my car, it is present whenever the lower gears are selected. After reading the tutorial, I’m wondering if the common factor is output shaft 1.
Obviously, I cannot tell if any of the possible reasons you have listed are the culprit/s. However, I would be a bit surprised if they would have installed a used or refurbished Mech in a brand new car.
The dealer said that Audi techs told them it was the lube pump and is normal. Since I see that both lube pumps are electrically driven, I cannot understand why the so called noise in my car is speed related and changes as the gears change. Could it be a misalignment of the selector fork or synchro ring? I’ll try to make a recording of the noise.
Audi Australia have been totally unhelpful. They are the ones who flatly refused to replace the vehicle and insisted on repair under warranty. Only after a lot of arguing, they extended warranty by an additional two years as a form of compensation, but that is no consolation if I have to accept the noisy growl in the gearbox....
#6
07-31-2019, 02:21 PM
You could always take the car to a mechanic that specializes on VW/Audi and have them take a listen and get their opinion.
If you say the growl happened in the other car when cold but then goes away when warmed up, perhaps you could consider changing the fluid. Maybe the fluid in your car is incorrect or not filled to the proper level. I say this because two things happen to the fluid when its warmed up: it becomes thinner and flows better, and it expands.
Now I think about it, you could also change out the filter. Maybe it's preventing the flow of fluid at the required volume.
If it's anything more than the fluids, then you have to fight Audi to get the thing repaired right. Does Australia have lemon car laws? Here in the U.S. in some states, if the car is defective and requires multiple repairs, it might fall under the lemon law protection so you get your money back.
If you say the growl happened in the other car when cold but then goes away when warmed up, perhaps you could consider changing the fluid. Maybe the fluid in your car is incorrect or not filled to the proper level. I say this because two things happen to the fluid when its warmed up: it becomes thinner and flows better, and it expands.
Now I think about it, you could also change out the filter. Maybe it's preventing the flow of fluid at the required volume.
If it's anything more than the fluids, then you have to fight Audi to get the thing repaired right. Does Australia have lemon car laws? Here in the U.S. in some states, if the car is defective and requires multiple repairs, it might fall under the lemon law protection so you get your money back.
Last edited by findalex; 07-31-2019 at 02:23 PM.
#7
07-31-2019, 06:04 PM
I’ve tried to get a solution through Australian Consumer Law (ACL), but I will have to get a judge to rule that this fault is a “major” fault. I don’t have financial or legal resources to fight Audi in a court. Government is working on strengthening ACL, but too slow for me.
I have taken it to an independent. They agreed there is a noise, but given warranty and since it is a new style gearbox that they have no experience with, they seemed reluctant to get too involved. They have asked for the car to be left with them overnight so they can drive it first thing (when cold). I am trying to organise a suitable time to do that.
Dealer is saying that everything is OK and are ignoring my emails.
I have taken it to an independent. They agreed there is a noise, but given warranty and since it is a new style gearbox that they have no experience with, they seemed reluctant to get too involved. They have asked for the car to be left with them overnight so they can drive it first thing (when cold). I am trying to organise a suitable time to do that.
Dealer is saying that everything is OK and are ignoring my emails.
#8
10-17-2019, 11:55 AM
Hi Findalex
First of all, thank you for your reply a few months ago. I was a bit off the grid so wasnt able to respond. Here is where I am at now.
The dealer used the diagnostic tool which gave them a Fault code P071500 - Gearbox Input Speed Sender 1 - Electrical fault. Their protocol sheet proceeded to state that the possible "Possible fault causes in the megatronics unit : Gearbox Input Speed Sender 1 - G632 is defective" and " Automatic Gearbox control unit - J217 is defective.
The dealer have a protocol which they run through. It seems to me that it runs through an interactive test program where after each step you enter a value before it continues. What happens from the step down in the middle of the page where it says "Output - No test instrument available". ??? Then a few steps after that it says to replace the megatronics unit. What happened to the testing of the Speed sender ? Or should replacing the megatronics unit include the speed sender ?
Then on page two it again makes reference to G632 - Gearbox input speed sender 1 and suggest replacing the megatronics unit.
I am confused to why it reference to the Gearbox Input Speed sender while recommending replacing the megatronics. Are they tied together somehow. Would you fix a gearbox input speed sender if you change the megatronics.
The reason for my confusion is that after the dealer replaced my megatronics unit for a new one there was still a problem with the gearbox. The dealer proceeded to tell me that it must be a mechanical problem which the diagnostics tool cant pick up. He recommended me sending my vehicle to another authorised service centre as they dont work on the mechanical part of the gearbox themselves.
This service centre advised me that their diagnostic tool indicates that there is a failure on the Gearbox Input Sender and they will have to replace that first and then after be able to assess if there is mechanical damage.
So my questions are
1. Could the gearbox input speed sender have been the problem and not the megatronics unit
2. During the protocol, should diagnostics have been performed on the gearbox input speed sender to verify if it works rather than stopping as soon as it was suggested that the megatronics unit needed to be replaced.
3. After the megatroincs unit was replaced and the gearbox still gave problems, should the gearbox Input speed Sender fault been indicated while running their diagnostics.
4. Is the Gearbox Input Speed sender not part of the megatronics.
I am just perplexed how an Audi dealer could not have picked up that there is a faulty gearbox input speed sender after replacing the megatronics and the vehicle still had issues and then send it away only for the new service center to immediately pick up the fault.
I smell a rat
Your professional insight will be greatly appreciated.
First of all, thank you for your reply a few months ago. I was a bit off the grid so wasnt able to respond. Here is where I am at now.
The dealer used the diagnostic tool which gave them a Fault code P071500 - Gearbox Input Speed Sender 1 - Electrical fault. Their protocol sheet proceeded to state that the possible "Possible fault causes in the megatronics unit : Gearbox Input Speed Sender 1 - G632 is defective" and " Automatic Gearbox control unit - J217 is defective.
The dealer have a protocol which they run through. It seems to me that it runs through an interactive test program where after each step you enter a value before it continues. What happens from the step down in the middle of the page where it says "Output - No test instrument available". ??? Then a few steps after that it says to replace the megatronics unit. What happened to the testing of the Speed sender ? Or should replacing the megatronics unit include the speed sender ?
Then on page two it again makes reference to G632 - Gearbox input speed sender 1 and suggest replacing the megatronics unit.
I am confused to why it reference to the Gearbox Input Speed sender while recommending replacing the megatronics. Are they tied together somehow. Would you fix a gearbox input speed sender if you change the megatronics.
The reason for my confusion is that after the dealer replaced my megatronics unit for a new one there was still a problem with the gearbox. The dealer proceeded to tell me that it must be a mechanical problem which the diagnostics tool cant pick up. He recommended me sending my vehicle to another authorised service centre as they dont work on the mechanical part of the gearbox themselves.
This service centre advised me that their diagnostic tool indicates that there is a failure on the Gearbox Input Sender and they will have to replace that first and then after be able to assess if there is mechanical damage.
So my questions are
1. Could the gearbox input speed sender have been the problem and not the megatronics unit
2. During the protocol, should diagnostics have been performed on the gearbox input speed sender to verify if it works rather than stopping as soon as it was suggested that the megatronics unit needed to be replaced.
3. After the megatroincs unit was replaced and the gearbox still gave problems, should the gearbox Input speed Sender fault been indicated while running their diagnostics.
4. Is the Gearbox Input Speed sender not part of the megatronics.
I am just perplexed how an Audi dealer could not have picked up that there is a faulty gearbox input speed sender after replacing the megatronics and the vehicle still had issues and then send it away only for the new service center to immediately pick up the fault.
I smell a rat
Your professional insight will be greatly appreciated.
#9
10-17-2019, 01:53 PM
It is reasonable to replace the mechatronics with that error. And really, it is the only part that most dealer technicians are skilled enough to replace. Everything else in the gear box is super complicated and would required special training and tools to work on.
As of now, you just have to go through Audi's protocol until they either figure out the problem or end up giving you a new transmission. If you're paying this out of your own pocket, then you could potentially find someone to fix a specific part. However, realize that the reason why Audi's protocol starts with replacing the mechatronics is because the cost of labor of doing detailed diagnosis and repair would be much higher than just replacing the whole mechatronics.
Let's hope they just give up on further diagnosis and just get you a new transmission. It's not uncommon, but may require the replacement of a few more mechatronics. Fight for it!
As of now, you just have to go through Audi's protocol until they either figure out the problem or end up giving you a new transmission. If you're paying this out of your own pocket, then you could potentially find someone to fix a specific part. However, realize that the reason why Audi's protocol starts with replacing the mechatronics is because the cost of labor of doing detailed diagnosis and repair would be much higher than just replacing the whole mechatronics.
Let's hope they just give up on further diagnosis and just get you a new transmission. It's not uncommon, but may require the replacement of a few more mechatronics. Fight for it!
#10
10-17-2019, 02:14 PM
Hi Findalex
Thank you for the reply. Much appreciated.
Could you Give me your thoughts on the process though. If there was a reported possible defect on both the Megatronics unit and the Gearbox sender, should they have replaced both ? Why would they only replace the megatronics ? Surely after they replaced it and this problem exist they should have known that they must look at the sender. Instead they said that they don’t know what the problem is and it would be more cost effective for me for another service center to look at it. The first thing the new service center picked up with their diagnostics tool was a faulty gearbox speed sender ???
And just to clarify, the speed sender had nothing to do with the Mechatronics correct ? In other words, it is not part of the new unit ?
Thank yoi again
kind regards
Hans
Thank you for the reply. Much appreciated.
Could you Give me your thoughts on the process though. If there was a reported possible defect on both the Megatronics unit and the Gearbox sender, should they have replaced both ? Why would they only replace the megatronics ? Surely after they replaced it and this problem exist they should have known that they must look at the sender. Instead they said that they don’t know what the problem is and it would be more cost effective for me for another service center to look at it. The first thing the new service center picked up with their diagnostics tool was a faulty gearbox speed sender ???
And just to clarify, the speed sender had nothing to do with the Mechatronics correct ? In other words, it is not part of the new unit ?
Thank yoi again
kind regards
Hans