Hello,
Well, no issues so far since last time my values were cleaned. Also at that time, there was a PCV type value (not that exactly, but some value like a PCV value) changed. You might ask your dealer about this option too. Anyhow, after this service, I got an email to do a survey for Audi Corporate.

I filled out the survey, mentioned how disappointed I was and requested someone contact me. About 4 weeks went by and got a call and explained my issues and frustration. They asked me what I wanted them do to (outside of permanently fixing my car) and I said they should extend my warranty. Note that I've also had a couple other issues with my 2008 A6. I had a water pump replaced at 5k because it was "whistling" and also some fans in the AC area replaced around 15k because they were "ticking". So, I mentioned all these problems and asked for an extended warranty as well as an explanation of the current issue with the carbon build-up.

After several calls from Audi Corp from a very nice customer service rep, they agreed to offer me a warranty extension of an additional 12mos./12k to bring the total to 5 years / 62k warranty on the entire car. Also, the customer service rep. said that the engineers in Germany are aware of the issue, they are working on it, but right now there is no known cause and no known permanent solution. I was told I would be notified if/when there is a solution. Meantime, I'm at around 24k miles and everything seems to be going well (knock on wood!).

Hope this helps...my suggestion would be to get on the phone with Audi Corporate. Their number is 800-822-2834 and you can probably open a request with them and get something going when you call. Note that they said behind the scenes they were calling my local Audi dealer to get info about all the repairs that had been done to my car. I never heard from the dealer, and haven't had my car back in for service yet, but I do plan to ask them if they indeed were contacted by corporate. Also, I plan on taking in a copy of the letter for their files that discussed the extended warranty, just in case they don't get the same letter. Haven't gotten the letter yet, though.
Hope this helps you some...keep in touch how things go with you.
Cheers,
cpk

 

Hi,

I have a 2008 A4 3.2 Quattro S-Line w/ Titanium package and have run into the same issues described here. I have only used 91 fuel from Top Tier providers i.e. Shell, Chevron, etc.

Check engine light came on around 14k and engine started misfiring. Took into dealer and they first told me I was using "bad gas". I didn't buy the explanation, then they told me that maybe I didn't put the gas cap on all the way. That didn't appear to be the case and I demo'ed this to them. They continued insisting that the issue was my fault somehow but they "agreed" to add a cleaner agent and reset the light.

About 800 miles later the check engine light came on again. Took a few days to get an appt w/ the local dealer and in the meantime the check engine light went off and on a few times.

Took it back and thankfully got a new service guy who knew right away what it was and printed out the TSB for me. The Transaction No. is 2014753/6. The title is "01 MIL on, gasoline quality (DTC P0300 or P030x, lean condition DTCs)". There is nothing in the TSB about it being Audi's fault. The TSB description just says condition is caused by using a gasoline with low content of deposit control additives. This is clearly not the case in my situation.

This will continue to be an ongoing issue for the car and is not something Audi can "fix". So, what are our options from a legal perspective. I wonder if anything can be done in a class action type of situation.

Any more details people can provide about what they were able to do in the situation would be much appreciated. Right now Audi is cleaning the valves on my car with the understanding that it will need to be done again. This is really bad.

Thanks in advance!

Aimee

 

Hi,

An update of what I've done. Spoke with FTv2 (a big THANKS for his help) about his experience and the process with Audi and things to start doing right away.

The local dealer still has my car so can't test it yet. They are cleaning the carbon deposits on the intake valves and also were told by TAC to do an RVU software update...hope I got that description right. One of the service guys told me this seems to be an issue with approximately 35% of the A6 3.2s they've sold but he's only seen two A4 3.2s come in but he says he rarely sees them anyway. If this is true re the A6's then it would seem to be a fairly large issue for Audi. He quoted me $1,100-$1,200 to do the cleaning once the car is out of warranty. He says typically the car will be good until 40-50k once the cleaning is done. This is a little unreal that they know about the design issue and expect us to pay to continue to fix it once the car is out of warranty.

I sent an email describing the issue to Audi Customer CARE Advocate group asking for 1) Written letter sent to me with the customer case# detailing my reporting of the issue. 2) Written letter from Audi describing what is causing the carbon buildup and their permanent resolution to the issue.

If there is no resolution and the car will be permanently defective then I
expect Audi to do one of the following: 1) Repurchase my vehicle for the amount paid. Credit toward purchase of another Audi or cash is acceptable or 2) Replace my vehicle with a 2009 similar mileage and feature vehicle which does not have the engine defect.

I hope that Audi stands behind their products and does the right thing here. I would love to post positive comments regarding Audi and their response to this issue to show other customers that they can depend on quality products and excellent service from Audi.

If I receive no response from Audi by Sep 2nd 2009 then I will be filing a case for the issue with the Santa Clara BBB who has successfully handled one case already, writing up my experiences to post on Edmunds.com, and also contacting Consumer Reports to see if an in depth report can be done on this issue.

Hopefully, I hear from Audi and this situation gets resolved for all those affected.

-A

 

Hi,
Replying to bearshark and all the others. My car was in this week AGAIN after engine light came on. This is the 3rd time. It was just over 5,000 miles since the last time it happened. I was at 26,000 miles this time when it happened.

My invoice says they did the following:
"PERFORMED ECM UPDATE AND VALVE/INTAKE CLEANING PER TAC LINE CASE #MG-355049" I'm assuming that a case number tied to my issue. They told me this software update has something to do with an evac code (?) and injects more fuel in an attempt to burn away the carbon or something like that.

Anyhow, you can see my previous post explaining that I got a warranty extension from Audi Corporate. I called them again after picking up my car and told them again I'm very disapointed and have no faith that this issue will ever get fixed. They are going back to the dealer to get more records and I'm waiting to hear back from them. This time, I said that my wish is they purchase back my car (probably fat chance that will happen!).

I also started putting some pressure on the dealership that they are not doing everything I feel they can do to make me a satisfied customer. For instance, not once have I heard from the service manager in the many times my car has been in their shop.

BEARSHARK, curious to know how far you get with the BBB and others. Keep us all posted. I'm in North Carolina and guess I need to look up a local BBB here too. I'll post more info once I hear back from Audi Corporate.

Cheers,
Chris...

 

Hi!

So sorry cpk801 you are having these issues too.

I logged an Audi Customer CARE case on Aug 12th in the afternoon and received a reply from Heather Klein from Audi the next morning on Aug 13th around 8:30am-9:30am. At that time she said she would just follow up with the dealer who had my car to make sure they were doing everything possible. They were and are doing everything possible... this isn't why I logged the case. I am happy with my dealer...the engine issue isn't their fault, it's Audi's.

My Audi case# is 90200396. Please feel free to reference. If you get a case number too please let me know. I also asked for a hard copy of the case send to my home mailing address.

Here's the information from my warranty work. "Tech found faults P0300, P0301, P0303, P0305, and P0306. Misfire faults on cylinders #1, #3, #5, and #6." Then at the bottom of the invoice "Tech was advised by Technical Assistance to check for carbon build up on spark plugs and tech found none. Technical Assistance than authorized to perform intake valve carbon deposit cleaning. Tech performed technical bulletin on cleaning carbon deposits on intake valves. Tech ran vehicle cold and checked for misfires, no misfires were found. Tech performed road test and found no misfire faults present. Vehicle now operating per manufactor's specs at this time"

So, the software was not flashed/upgraded as mentioned in my previous post. Per my service advisor the mechanic and the TAC went back and forth on that and in the end decided not to do that.

The vehicle is running extremely well now. Feels very responsive and sound of engines is also slightly different. I feel this is just a band aid though since the root cause of the issue is still not resolved.

I asked my service advisor if Audi CARE had contacted him and he said they had sent him an email but would not comment further. I got the sense he had been squeezed but I have no confirmation of that. He was/is doing an excellent job as far as I'm concerned so hope everything is ok there.

I'll see if Audi CARE follows up in the next day or two...if not, I will follow up with them. I would still like to see a written statement from Audi about the issue: cause and resolution, and how they plan to address going forward so owners are not out of pocket for resulting expenses.

I'll determine the next course of action depending on the response. This would probably include filing a case with BBB, more postings on prominent car bulletin boards to find people with the same problem, and contacting Consumer Reports and other consumer organizations.

I'm still hoping they do the right thing here and take care of all of the people who have affected cars. They have a chance to show here that they take care of their customers and that we can depend on their product.

Hopefully, this helps! Please keep me in the loop on your progress, if any, with Audi.

Thanks!
-A

 

Hi!

Contacted RI_A6 about the Biosyn oil and whether I could use in my A4 and here was his response:

"I have a 2008 A6 3.2 with the same engine, and have been using RLI Biosyn since the 1st oil change. 20K on the engine and no issues. The engine used similar design practices to the RS4 4.2 FSI engine and has the same deposit issues. The secret at the dealers is that intake valve deposits for the 3.2 engine are as bad or worse than the RS4.

RLI Biosyn is not an approved oil, however, I had it formulated to be better than approved oils. Even if you have an issue with the engine, Audi would have to prove that the oil was at fault. It will not be. My dealer has no problem with putting RLI oil into my engine. Another option is to have an independent shop perform your oil change and replace the dealer oil with Biosyn.

I would suggest the following steps for you to take:

-Change to RLI Biosyn 5W40 immediately.

-At the same time have the air filter changed. (if you are in a high dust, sand or salt environment, have the intake air filter changed every 10K miles, otherwise change it every 20K miles.)

-Begin to use RLI BioPlus fuel additive in every tank of fuel at the standard treatment rate on the bottle. Biosyn will clean the engine of the previous "gunk" left behind, so change it again at 5K miles

-Contact Terry Dyson about performing oil analysis www.dysonanalysis.com
At the oil change, have a sample taken of the previous Biosyn oil for Terry to analyze he may then recommend some additional actions or additives.

-Try to minimize short driving cycles as much as possible, especially during the winter. Cold weather climates will increase the problem if you do not allow the engine to get up to full operating temperature and burn off excess fuel that has been deposited in the oil during cold start enrichment. (it takes about 20 minutes of driving to do this)

-Once two oil change of Biosyn have been completed, the engine should be well-cleaned and remain relatively clean for most of it's life. The oil does not totally rid the engine of it's problems, but it seem to retard the deposits to a level that is acceptable and does not cause check engine lights. Thus far, all the engines using RLI Biosyn and RLI BioPlus have stayed CEL-free. Some RS4 engines now have 60K+ miles on them."

RI_A6 made the following further comments on a 2nd email exchange:

"You can purchase RLI Biosyn here:

http://www.renewablelube.com/order.htm

Purchase it by the gallon for price savings. It takes about 1 1/2 gallon (6 quarts) for 3.2L oil change. You'll want to purchase the Bio-Plus Injector Cleaner Gas Conditioner and the Bio-Synthetic Super High Performance SAE 5W40 HD

I'd purchase one of the 12 oz bottles of the Injector cleaner, and then a One Gallon bottle for refills. Be careful to wash off any that gets on your hands. It's a very strong chemical."

and "Whenever possible, use Shell V-Power 91 octane exclusively. It has additives specifically designed for Direct Injection. It won't solve the problem, but it will help a bit. In conjunction with Biosyn and BioPlus, Shell V-Power will make a difference."

Hope this helps others looking into the issue.

-A

 

From email exchange with RI_A6 posted with his permission:

"The problems have to do with the design of all direct injected engines, particularly with the audi/vw design, and oil that cannot withstand the design. The oil was designed based on work that I contracted Terry Dyson to perform in analysis and formulation. After early oil analysis of mine and other engines, it was clear to Terry (who is an Independent Professional Tribologist) that the Audi engines were quite literally destroying the "approved" oils through chemical fuel dilution. This fuel dilution breaks down the oil, reduces it's viscosity, allows even more oil to pass by the rings, and be recycled through the PVC system, onto the back of the intake valves. There it adheres and bakes in, forming carbonaceous deposits.

Terry Dyson, developed a theory of forumlation for an oil that would better withstand fuel dilution, mitigate the impact of fuel dilution in DI engines, and continuously clean. We tested some of the theories, found them to be correct, and I paid for him to work with formulator to have the oil produced. Very few companies in the world have the necessary technology to formulate an oil like this. Terry chose Renewable Lubricants, a home-grown Bio-synthetic lubricant company with some incredible patented technology. Terry worked directly with Bil Garmier, the owner of RLI, to develop what is now RLI Bio-Synthetic Super High Performance SAE 5W40 HD oil. Once it was formulated I tested it in my engine with incredibly good results. Its shows 50% reduced wear in these engines, reduced fuel dilution, and much longer oil life. Quite a few of us run it in our engines for 10K miles without a change, which for some has included many, many track events.

I now hold data base of Audi oil analysis on the RS4 and a few other engines, that contains 103 oil samples from 25 different engines, from 600 miles on the engine to nearly 60K miles. I have data on the following oils used in these engines, considered to be some of the best in the world:

Amsoil 5W40
Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Castrol TXT 505 5w40
Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40
Factory Oil
Fuchs Titan GT1 5W30
Lubro-Moly Vollsynthese 5w40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Motul 300V 5W-40
Motul 8100 E-tech 0w-40
Motul 8100 X-lite 0W30
Motul Xcess 5W-40
Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40
RLI Biosyn 5W-40
Rotella T CJ4 10W-30

The oil that we formulated consistently beats all of the other oils, and has not shown to cause accelerated deposit formation in the engine. This has been proven through oil analysis and in the case of several owners through intake manifold removal and inspection.

If your guy truly knows anything about oil, then he would recognize this one as extremely stout. It has the characteristics of a racing oil.

Here are some links to technical information about the oil and presentations made at some significant conferences:

http://teraspeed.com/RLI/Introductio...hnology%20.pdf
http://teraspeed.com/RLI/STLE%20Philadelphia.pdf
http://teraspeed.com/RLI/STLE%20Cleveland.pdf


Here's a lab analysis of a Virgin RLI BioSyn sample compared to other oils. However, much of the difference cannot be seen in an oil analysis. If he's interested, the oil uses stabilized bio-esters from High Oleic Base Stock (HOBS) in a mixture with high quality PAO base stock an extremely stiff ZDDP and copper/antimony additive package

Oil VOA RLI Biosyn 5W-40 Elf Excellium LDX 5W-40 Motul 8100 E-tech 0W40 Amsoil Euro 5W40 Mobil 1 0W-40 Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Iron 3 3 3 1 0 1
Copper 261 0 0 0 1 0
Tin 0 0 0 0 3 0
Lead 1 0 1 0 0 0
Chromium 0 0 0 0 0 0
Nickel 0 1 1 0 0 0
Aluminium 1 1 1 1 2 0
Titanium 0 0 0 0 4 0
Silver 0 0 0 0 0 0
Calcium 2533 1098 1194 1440 2930 1053
Magnesium 13 977 1077 12 26 926
Zinc 1492 1032 1088 804 1074 918
Phosphorus 1527 980 980 701 956 786
Barium 6 5 5 0
0
Molybdenum 1 0 1 0 71 2
Silicon 492 3 10 4
4
Sodium 5 13 14 3 6 5
Boron 7 4 1 50 3 1
Potassium 0 0 0 0 188 0
Vanadium 0 0 0 0 1 0






Viscosity 40C cSt 91.3 83.8 72


Viscosity 100C cSt 16.1 13.6 11.8 13.58 13.9
TAN 1.87 1.51 1.61


Flashpoint 395 420 430
405
Oxidation 154 8 85


Nitration 5 7 7


Water (KF - ppm) 2022 937 1165


TBN 10.3 9.6 10.1 7.52 12.5
Fuel 0.308 214 208


Soot 0.02 0 0


Glycol/Coolant 0 0.36 0


Viscosity Index 189 167 160


Sulfate 116 13 66 "

 

correctly comparing the different oils. Please contact me if you would like me to send them.

-A

 

All,
I heard back from Audi corporate today. Short story...I got nothing. I've been to my local dealer for a total of 3 value cleanings as a result of the misfire codes that show up when the engine light comes on. See my previous posts for more info.

Audi this time said that they denied my request of "removing me from my vehicle" (replacement or buy back). They also denied my request of another warranty extension, since they've already extended it to 5years or 62k miles.

Although I told them I don't feel they care about me as a customer and don't appreciate nor care that I'm a dissatisfied customer, they noted my comments and encouraged me to go through any local channels like BBB or other if I feel I want to go that route. This response is mainly because my car is fixed and is not currently giving me any problems, so as far as they are concerned, the issue is "fixed" and I haven't (yet?) experienced any other issues with the vehicle.

So, not sure next course of action, but I am looking into my local BBB to see what they might be able to help me with, and I've requested a dump of all my records from my local dealer, which they said they would mail me.

As an aside, Audi corporate said they would not tell me any information about other people that have had the issue nor a number of others that have had the issue. So, they are keeping tight lipped about it, and curious to know if any of you all get this info, post it out there for us.
Cheers,
Chris...

 

I am the owner of a 2008 A6 with the 3.2L engine. Last June, with only 15K miles on the car, I experienced the exact same problem with the intake valves carbon buildup. My dealer had to clean the intake valves and since then everything is running fine; I drove close to 2K miles since then.

I also reported by email this problem to Audi Customer Advocate and the same Heather Klein replied to me that the intake valves cleaning is considered by Audi to be a normal maintenance procedure and is therefore the responsibility of the owner of the vehicle.

I think this is "bullshit". This is a serious design fault and I know for a fact that Audi was well aware of it when they designed the FSI engine family but it appears that they were unable to find a reliable and permanent solution to prevent this intake valve carbon buildup.

This issue seriously affects the engine long term reliability and maintenance costs. Most of the carbon buildups can be cleaned without removing the engine's heads but I am afraid that eventually the intake valves will need to be removed to clean the excess carbon that could not be cleaned via the intake manifold: that will then be a very expensive job.

Instead of simply acknowledging the problem and come up with a permanent solution, Audi is working hard to hide the problem, to practice damage control and transfer their responsibility onto their customers' shoulders. By the way, this problem affects all Audi FSI engines (4,6,8,10 cyl).

I am too a disappointed Audi user because otherwise it is a great car. Too bad. I am also amazed that this issue is not yet public knowledge.