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2.0t FSI cam follower issue

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Old Feb 27, 2014 | 12:36 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by B7Night
Well 108,500 miles and guess what! My car's cam follower failed. I thought the car's acceleration has been a little strange for a while. It also stumbled a few times in the last couple months. I'm on vacation, and it stumbles and the check engine light comes on. I checked the codes at the local auto parts store, and the infamous combination of codes popped up hinting toward the cam follower. Lucky I made it to a dealer. The car couldn't even hold 55 or 70 mph going up slight grades on the way. At least everything is covered under warranty since Audi pushed the warranty on the parts out to 120,000 miles. Not only did I loose the intake cam, the follower and the fuel pump, but it went on long enough that it trashed the cylinder head too.
I have a 2007 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro base model with a seized oil pump. The oil and filter was changed at every 10K. Here is a list of events that led up to my problem.

1.0 61,500 KM: Damaged camshaft, cam follower, HPFP, oil suction pipe/screen were replaced under the new vehicle warranty.

2.0 76,700 KM: PCV valve replaced under new vehicle warranty.

3.0 151,715 KM: Damaged camshaft, cam follower, HPFP, oil suction pipe/screen, chain than runs the cam and tensioner were replaced and paid ($3,450 CAD). I’m looking to get refunded by Audi as the camshaft is covered under an extended warranty 10yr/160,000 KM. At the same time, I had the timing belt, water pump and thermoset changed. ($1,100 CAD)

4.0 151,785 KM: After leaving the Audi dealership and having driven only 70KM, the red low oil pressure light appeared on my dash. I immediately immobilized the car and towed it back to the Audi dealership.*After having removed the oil pan and oil pump cover, here is what Audi found (I took loads of pictures of these points):
Traces of metal filings in the oil pan;
Broken oil pump chain;
Seized oil pump;
Slightly scratched crankshaft bearings (no. 2 and 4);
Very lightly scratched crankshaft, little thin lines (no. 2 and 4);

No damage to cylinder head or cam shafts (in and out).

I would like to know if a faulty intervention by an Audi mechanic would have caused the pump to seize (ex. Not properly flushing the oil pan after replacing the broken cam follower, timing belt intervention, etc.). I have a hard time swallowing the fact that the pump seized only 70KM after having the works specified under point no. 3 above.*

Price tag for oil pump replacement: $3,300 (incl. 3 hrs diagnostics, 7 hrs of labor, $2,730 pieces).Any help, thoughts, feedback would help.*

Best regards,

Alessio
 
Old Mar 1, 2014 | 02:42 PM
  #82  
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Hard to tell, but one of the things they are required to do when the cam follower replacement is done, is an oil change. I'm guessing thats to help flush out the metal shavings.
 
Old Mar 3, 2014 | 12:05 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by B7Night
Hard to tell, but one of the things they are required to do when the cam follower replacement is done, is an oil change. I'm guessing thats to help flush out the metal shavings.
The dealership said that they did perform an engine flush and replacement of the oil strainer as a precaution to prevent further damage caused by left over particles in the engine oil pan but that it's not included in the TSB (2013147) provided by Audi. Not only did they not perform the oil flush correctly, they are suggesting that they weren't even supposed to do it because its not stipulated in the TSB provided by Audi.
 
Old Mar 4, 2014 | 07:47 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by _Alessio_
The dealership said that they did perform an engine flush and replacement of the oil strainer as a precaution to prevent further damage caused by left over particles in the engine oil pan but that it's not included in the TSB (2013147) provided by Audi. Not only did they not perform the oil flush correctly, they are suggesting that they weren't even supposed to do it because its not stipulated in the TSB provided by Audi.
Alessio, do you mind stating where you are located in Canada? You shouldn't have had to pay for the cam follower work! I'm a bit surprised you've had to do it twice as well. Is that why they aren't covering it?

I suspect that the balance shafts - not the oil pump - actually failed. They are part of the same assembly and driven by the same chain. Some people disable them because they are a known weak point, especially in tuned engines that like to rev. The downside is more vibration - google and you'll get some perspective.

Here is a video showing a new unit (part # 06D103295P):

And the balance shaft disabled:

Those gears inside are probably what's fubared. Oil pumps are very durable and if you've ever looked inside one there's not much to them (That said, the oil pump could have been what actually seized). The balance shafts, on the other hand, spin at double the engine RPM (to cancel out vibration) and are more failure prone.

Neither the oil pump nor balance shaft gears would have been dropped when they dropped the pan, so depending on the "flush" method these may have been completely out of the 'loop' and remained susceptible to whatever garbage floated around from the cam follower.

If they did drop the assembly, then they were into the chain and tensioner to gain access; items which failed and, in my book, would fall squarely on them.

I'm surprised they dropped the pan for you as everything else can be done from up top and in the service position, whereas the pan usually needs the subframe to come down or the engine to come up. They may have a trick to get at it though.

Replacing the oil pickup was more of a 1.8T sludge "thing". I'm not sure what a new one would help with, but maybe it had some metal debris stuck on the screen, which would make it all the more likely that any pump failure was on account of that debris that got past (and attributable to the failed cam follower). I think the term audi uses is "consequential damage" - where one part, covered under warranty, takes out another, which is not. They'll usually cover it. So you really need to get them to accept responsibility for the cam follower repair to have the coverage extend to anything that failed as a result of it.

I would document every conversation you've had and calmly escalate this matter. There are a number of ways they may have caused or contributed to the failure.

Now, in terms of fixing the problem, you've got a few options. I would give the dealer some more intense pressure before resorting to fixing it elsewhere, but the oil pump itself is about $1100-$1300 in the US. What other parts are they replacing? I'm guessing crankshaft and bearings? You can get an entire used engine for about $2000 from car-part.com! A used crank should be a couple hundred versus $750-1000 new.

Over a used crank, I'd probably get a used block ("short" block, without heads) from a car that had a timing belt fail or similar. The engine block is the same for a WHOLE lot of cars, including some VW etc, but the crank may be different so it might be safer to stay with a B7. Either way, a used block, especially one that needs pistons, might be $250-$400 and would include a used oil pump/balance shaft assembly and crankshaft - you wouldn't actually use the block/pistons/rods/etc, but everything you do need is right there. Add a couple hundred for crankshaft bearings plus some other fluids/hardware you could get the thing going for not too much with the right help.

Now, I know what you're thinking, what if this stupid balance gizmo fails again? That's a decision you'll have to make and live with. If you want to keep the car another 10 years then get a new one, no question. You could also disable it and live with the slightly greater engine vibration or just roll the dice on leaving it be. You have to be very unlucky to have two fail! Though I would have said the same about the follower.

A last cheap option would be to retrofit a 1.8T oil pump (which has no balance shafts and is ~$100), but you need a bunch of other hardware and that just doesn't seem worthwhile when the used block is such an affordable option to get everything back the way it should be.

Best of luck! I know the used block route sounds like a lot of work and it's ultimately up to you if the hassle is worth it. I'd sure as h*ll spend time fighting with the dealer before I did anything else.

P.S. (LEGAL INFORMATION AND NOT ADVICE) Know any lawyers? If they don't cooperate, I'd send them a letter asking them to send all service records and notes to Whoever LLP for further review. Depending on what province you're in the, your Consumer Protection Act may afford you some protection as well: Consumer Protection Legislation in Canada - www.consumerinformation.ca. Immediately request that they not discard any failed parts or fragments thereof.
 
Old Mar 5, 2014 | 12:28 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by _Alessio_
The dealership said that they did perform an engine flush and replacement of the oil strainer as a precaution to prevent further damage caused by left over particles in the engine oil pan but that it's not included in the TSB (2013147) provided by Audi.
FYI - I looked up the details. Here is your block as per the lubrication section:
 
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Old Mar 5, 2014 | 12:44 AM
  #86  
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And the assembly itself:



Notice it doesn't say "renew" (replace) strainer if dirty. Looks like it's also possible to disassemble the oil pump, at least in part, which I did not know before today.

1 - Chain guard
2 - Chain
q Before removing, mark running direction (fitting position) with paint
3 - Dowel sleeve
4 - Spacer plate
5 - Balance shaft assembly with oil pump
q Before installing, check that the two dowel sleeves for centring oil pump/cylinder block are fitted
q Removing and installing → Chapter
6 - 9 Nm
7 - Cover
q Prevents foam build-up in engine oil
8 - 40 Nm
9 - 8 Nm
10 - Oil intake pipe
q Clean strainer if dirty

11 - O-ring
q Renew
12 - Bolt
q Renew
q Note different bolt lengths → Fig.
q Tightening sequence → Fig.
13 - Bolt
q Renew
q With seal
q Note different bolt lengths → Fig.
q Tightening sequence → Fig.
14 - Outer rotor
q Check contact surfaces for scores
q Marking must be visible
15 - Inner rotor
q Check contact surfaces for scores
16 - Oil pump cover
17 - Chain sprocket
18 - 20 Nm + turn 90° further
q Renew
19 - Chain tensioner with tensioning rail
q Pre-tensioning before installing → Chapter
20 - 15 Nm
 
Old Mar 5, 2014 | 01:37 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Sonorous
Alessio, do you mind stating where you are located in Canada? ...You shouldn't have had to pay for the cam follower work! I'm a bit surprised you've had to do it twice as well. Is that why they aren't covering it?

I suspect that the balance shafts - not the oil pump - actually failed. They are part of the same assembly and driven by the same chain. Some people disable them because they are a known weak point, especially in tuned engines that like to rev. The downside is more vibration - google and you'll get some perspective.

Here is a video showing a new unit (part # 06D103295P): Vw audi 2.0t fsi balance shaft drive in pump housing pre de - YouTube

And the balance shaft disabled: Vw audi 2.0t fsi balance shafts disabled - YouTube

Those gears inside are probably what's fubared. Oil pumps are very durable and if you've ever looked inside one there's not much to them (That said, the oil pump could have been what actually seized). The balance shafts, on the other hand, spin at double the engine RPM (to cancel out vibration) and are more failure prone.

Neither the oil pump nor balance shaft gears would have been dropped when they dropped the pan, so depending on the "flush" method these may have been completely out of the 'loop' and remained susceptible to whatever garbage floated around from the cam follower.

If they did drop the assembly, then they were into the chain and tensioner to gain access; items which failed and, in my book, would fall squarely on them.

I'm surprised they dropped the pan for you as everything else can be done from up top and in the service position, whereas the pan usually needs the subframe to come down or the engine to come up. They may have a trick to get at it though.

Replacing the oil pickup was more of a 1.8T sludge "thing". I'm not sure what a new one would help with, but maybe it had some metal debris stuck on the screen, which would make it all the more likely that any pump failure was on account of that debris that got past (and attributable to the failed cam follower). I think the term audi uses is "consequential damage" - where one part, covered under warranty, takes out another, which is not. They'll usually cover it. So you really need to get them to accept responsibility for the cam follower repair to have the coverage extend to anything that failed as a result of it.

I would document every conversation you've had and calmly escalate this matter. There are a number of ways they may have caused or contributed to the failure.

Now, in terms of fixing the problem, you've got a few options. I would give the dealer some more intense pressure before resorting to fixing it elsewhere, but the oil pump itself is about $1100-$1300 in the US. What other parts are they replacing? I'm guessing crankshaft and bearings? You can get an entire used engine for about $2000 from car-part.com! A used crank should be a couple hundred versus $750-1000 new.

Over a used crank, I'd probably get a used block ("short" block, without heads) from a car that had a timing belt fail or similar. The engine block is the same for a WHOLE lot of cars, including some VW etc, but the crank may be different so it might be safer to stay with a B7. Either way, a used block, especially one that needs pistons, might be $250-$400 and would include a used oil pump/balance shaft assembly and crankshaft - you wouldn't actually use the block/pistons/rods/etc, but everything you do need is right there. Add a couple hundred for crankshaft bearings plus some other fluids/hardware you could get the thing going for not too much with the right help.

Now, I know what you're thinking, what if this stupid balance gizmo fails again? That's a decision you'll have to make and live with. If you want to keep the car another 10 years then get a new one, no question. You could also disable it and live with the slightly greater engine vibration or just roll the dice on leaving it be. You have to be very unlucky to have two fail! Though I would have said the same about the follower.

A last cheap option would be to retrofit a 1.8T oil pump (which has no balance shafts and is ~$100), but you need a bunch of other hardware and that just doesn't seem worthwhile when the used block is such an affordable option to get everything back the way it should be.

Best of luck! I know the used block route sounds like a lot of work and it's ultimately up to you if the hassle is worth it. I'd sure as h*ll spend time fighting with the dealer before I did anything else.

P.S. (LEGAL INFORMATION AND NOT ADVICE) Know any lawyers? If they don't cooperate, I'd send them a letter asking them to send all service records and notes to Whoever LLP for further review. Depending on what province you're in the, your Consumer Protection Act may afford you some protection as well: Consumer Protection Legislation in Canada - www.consumerinformation.ca. Immediately request that they not discard any failed parts or fragments thereof.
Hello Sonorous, Thanks for your input and advice.

I live in Quebec, Canada and I should also mention that my vehicle is a US vehicle.

Concerning the fact that I paid for the camshaft repairs, Audi USA is looking into it. Hopefully I'll get reimbursed. However, I should mention that the dealer did mention that they dropped the oil pan and cleaned it as well as replaced the oil pumps' strainer. To do so, they must have dropped the sub frame. My issue is that the dealer cleaned the oil pan (no engine flush) and replaced the strainer but these steps are not indicated in Audi technical service bulletin (TSB) 2013147/13. Can this be a fault because they didn't follow Audi procedures? They say that they did it as a preventative measure. What happens to all the debris from a broken cam follower if Audi's TSB doesn't not specify to drop and clean the oil pan as well as get rid of the metal pieces within the engine's components?

As for the pump seizing after 70KM of the camshaft works, I was present during the diagnostics and took many pictures, of which I will post the key pictures below. Upon removing the oil pan, the pump's chain was broken and the pump was seized. The sprocket that connects to the chain as well as the balance shaft gears did not turn.

The dealer's solution is to replace the oil pump, chain, tensioner and crankshaft bearings (not the crankshaft). They refuse to admit that the damages to the crankshaft, broken chain and seized pump was due to the broken cam follower pieces. They even told me to prove how the cam follower pieces scratched the crankshaft, lol. From the pictures I took and from what the mechanic told me, the crankshaft (no. 2 and 4) are slightly scratched. The condition of the pistons are unknown. I am worried that after I spend the money for the above mentioned repairs that my engine may seize because of the slightly scratched crankshaft and other damages that cant be seen in the near or far future.
 
Attached Thumbnails 2.0t FSI cam follower issue-oil-pump-seized_part1_page_2.jpg   2.0t FSI cam follower issue-oil-pump-seized_part1_page_3.jpg   2.0t FSI cam follower issue-oil-pump-seized_part2_page_1.jpg   2.0t FSI cam follower issue-oil-pump-seized_part2_page_2.jpg   2.0t FSI cam follower issue-oil-pump-seized_part2_page_3.jpg  

Old Mar 5, 2014 | 05:06 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by _Alessio_
Hello Sonorous, Thanks for your input and advice.

I live in Quebec, Canada and I should also mention that my vehicle is a US vehicle.

Concerning the fact that I paid for the camshaft repairs, Audi USA is looking into it. Hopefully I'll get reimbursed. However, I should mention that the dealer did mention that they dropped the oil pan and cleaned it as well as replaced the oil pumps' strainer. To do so, they must have dropped the sub frame. My issue is that the dealer cleaned the oil pan (no engine flush) and replaced the strainer but these steps are not indicated in Audi technical service bulletin (TSB) 2013147/13. Can this be a fault because they didn't follow Audi procedures? They say that they did it as a preventative measure. What happens to all the debris from a broken cam follower if Audi's TSB doesn't not specify to drop and clean the oil pan as well as get rid of the metal pieces within the engine's components?

As for the pump seizing after 70KM of the camshaft works, I was present during the diagnostics and took many pictures, of which I will post the key pictures below. Upon removing the oil pan, the pump's chain was broken and the pump was seized. The sprocket that connects to the chain as well as the balance shaft gears did not turn.

The dealer's solution is to replace the oil pump, chain, tensioner and crankshaft bearings (not the crankshaft). They refuse to admit that the damages to the crankshaft, broken chain and seized pump was due to the broken cam follower pieces. They even told me to prove how the cam follower pieces scratched the crankshaft, lol. From the pictures I took and from what the mechanic told me, the crankshaft (no. 2 and 4) are slightly scratched. The condition of the pistons are unknown. I am worried that after I spend the money for the above mentioned repairs that my engine may seize because of the slightly scratched crankshaft and other damages that cant be seen in the near or far future.
Bonjour mon Ami! I lived in MTL for nearly a decade!

I've reattached that pic that didn't show for some reason:



I know I've had a difficult time in the past with US cars because the dealers feel like you've gone behind their back - I once had to fight Subaru USA to convince them that a US vehicle in Canada should be treated as a "Rust state" for a control arm rust campaign. I can see how this complicates things for you and it sounds like your dealer is not cooperating. It might be worth contacting AoA yourself. You QC dealer wouldn't have a relationship with AoA and so you may have to play middle man to get things moving. It should be no different than an American that was driving through Canada in a US car - they have procedures to deal with it and to allow Canadian dealers to do the work for AoA.

The oil pump and balance shaft should move independently - but that's sort of besides the point. Did you get a look at the filter? Was it full of shavings and/or collapsed?

You should try to find the oil flow diagram - here it is for a later VW 2.0t (I think!). Lots is unchanged but some very important differences may make this diagram useless, except to show you they exist and can help understand things:


B7 has a different filter module, more like this:



Too see, generally, how fragments end up from the follower into the oil pain, look at this VW diagram:



And finally, a more similar balance shaft assembly to what you've got:



It's always useful to understand how everything works, because often they'll feed you complete BS about something - service advisers in particular - and if you can politely correct them without being an ***, it puts you in much greater control. I.e. Service manager - "the oil pump is protect by a filter, so it cannot have failed from cam fragments". You "my understanding is ZYX, could you clarify that for me because I thought it was only the screen protecting the pump?". The mechanics are sometimes really nice about explaining things, but they too can be wrong or misguided.

Thinking out loud, if camshaft/follower/HPFP fragments remained in the system, they could have been have been picked up by the oil pump causing it to fail. Suppose the teeth sheered of part 15 of the first diagram - everything would still turn but you'd have no oil pressure. Bad things happen in short order (including main bearing damage!). I'm not saying that this was the case, but who knows, it's one scenario where the cam follower could be to blame. It's a bit disingenuous to have charged you for dropping the oil pan and replacing the oil pickup - which sits JUST in front of the oil pump - only to later say that nothing from the cam could have caused an oil pump to fail!

In terms of the Audi TSB, them going beyond what it calls for is not something you can really fault them for. It's possible it made things worse, but you have to keep in mind that whatever is floating around has been doing so for a while. In theory the screen keeps out most of the bigger crap while the filter takes care of the smaller fragments. The stuff that would make it through the screen should, in the normal course of things, make it through the pump without devastating damage, only to be caught by the filter. If the filter became clogged, it should have a bypass, but after 70km's that's near impossible. The filter could have failed, allowing unfiltered oil into the main bearings, etc., but presumably they looked at the filter. I hope you kept that as well!

You don't need to get this complicated though - in my mind, your Audi suffered from a failure that is covered by an extended warranty. That failure causes fragments of metal to make their way into the oil pan and lubrication system generally. Your car experienced catastrophic failure of that lubrication system due to something. The oil pump is basically the only system, aside from the chain that also failed, that must deal with unfiltered oil. If failure was remotely common I can assure you car makers would put more than a screen to protect it!

I'd be asking them for a plausible explanation of what else could cause this. Oil pumps do wear eventually and lose efficiency as a result, but a sudden failure or pump seizure is invariably the result of a foreign object jamming the rotary pump. You'll really want to get that oil pump open to take a look.

Best of luck!
 
Attached Thumbnails 2.0t FSI cam follower issue-lubrication-system-b8-2.0t.jpg  
Attached Images    
Old Mar 5, 2014 | 06:21 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by _Alessio_
the dealer did mention that they dropped the oil pan and cleaned it as well as replaced the oil pumps' strainer.
***EDIT*** I've removed thoughts questioning whether pan was actually dropped. Alessio emailed higher res pics and it is clear that it was cleaned and the a thin bead of sealant was applied. For some reason on my other computer it looked a lot like an old (greyish but originally black) rubber gasket. That is not the case.
 

Last edited by Sonorous; Mar 5, 2014 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Correction
Old Mar 6, 2014 | 01:37 AM
  #90  
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Alessio sent me some better pics, a couple quick thoughts in response. I know this is all a bit long winded but hopefully it might help someone else in the future...

The balance shaft weights are stuck "up" whereas they'd naturally want to fall down as per video. This may be something or nothing, hard to say...

Thinking through what actually could have happened, if the oil pump did seize, the engine would continue to run (or want to run) without regard for the oil pump and chain failure. The timing belt and timing chain are still fine; it still has air, fuel, spark, etc. though presumably the ECU saves it from itself at some point when there's no oil pressure. The crank (middle/top of the chain "triangle") would keep turning the oil pump/balance shaft chain clockwise and something has to give. It looks like the chain is weak link and unless the ECU cuts the engine it could keep running without the oil pump. My guess is that the chain would snap at the leading edge of the crank where the chain loses elasticity to the cogged wheel.

While the crank is trying to turn and the oil pump (bottom/right) is seized solid the chain would be trying to straighten out, putting pressure on the balance shaft drive. It's possible that it bent the mechanism driving the balance shaft (bottom/left) or took out some bearings. That could explain it being seized as well.

But even then, assuming the oil pump did seize suddenly, it would stop pumping altogether and stop sucking from the pickup as well. The metal crap in the BRAND NEW oil pickup make it seem like there was some carnage going on before the pump gave out. There's also quite a bit of 'stuff' in the oil pan. Is it at all clear where this came from? Was it ferrous or aluminum? Your tensioner actually looks pretty good all things considered! (***For example, I attached some pics where the tensioner itself failed. Note the extreme carnage, including to the balance shaft housing and crank teeth.***) It's not likely any fragments came from inside the oil pump because they be sent up to the oil filter and caught (if the pump was still pumping anything) or be trapped inside the screen if it somehow worked backwards. That's not to say that the pump couldn't fail and grenade other parts in the process, particularly if it took out the oil filter, but it does look like some new garbage, or leftovers of the old follower, was getting into the pump BEFORE it failed catastrophically.

Building on the unlikely scenario of oil working backwards thing, it might be worth asking at some point if the dealer has a procedure to prime the oil pump. Usually a check valve in the oil pump would prevent the oil in the pickup from draining back when the oil is changed (think finger on straw lifted out of glass). But when changing the pickup, an air pocket could have formed caused the pump to lose prime briefly or worse (think cavitation, etc.) and do some damage when they started it up. Usually if you rev the engine it will regain prime, but anything is possible. Priming engines for oil used to be a pretty common thing, but not so much any more. You can't even really 'fill' our filters before spinning them on like most of us were taught growing up! Anyways - the lost prime scenario is pretty remote, but you have to consider each and every thing they did on the car and how that could have contributed, however remote.

Again, best of luck! Hopefully you can get a look inside the oil pump to see what's going on, along with the filter and some other stuff.
 



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