What are the best subs to install?
#11
07-07-2007, 04:11 AM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
ORIGINAL: csuflyboy
You can disagree with me all you want, but logic and science disagree with you. If you hold one or the other constant (same amplifier or sub), either more cone surface area, or more power will prove to have more output. Look at an Audiobahn 12" subwoofer and the MTX 9500 12" subwoofer (same cone size)... power them both as directed. High end Audiobahn is 2,000wrms and the 9500 series is 500-1000wrms (or JL Audio 12w7 = 400-1000wrms). Same cone size... and the audiobahn has more power... but guess what... the MTX has more output. Because the audiobahn is nowhere near as efficient. Unless by output... you are referring to actual physical output (electricity). when I speak of output in this scenario... output = volume dB
I Use Audiobahn as an example because it is a very blatant and extreme version of what Im talking about. Believe it or not, they have actually toned it down a bit lately. for a while... they had subwoofers that handled 4,500 wrms. that is stupid.
Audiobahn in particular... ups the power tolerance on their subwoofers, allowing them to run on ridiculous power levels. When I speak of abusive high power hungry subwoofers... I am particularly speaking of Audiobahn and the RF Power 2 AKA HE2, T2. These subwoofers... while very good subwoofers (The Rockfords, not the Audiobahn)... are built in such a way that they require more power to put out the same level of sound. They are designed this way so that the end user will see that these subwoofers are "1,000 wrms/ea" and immediately think they are SPL superior to an MTX 9500 for example. Well, that just is not the case. The MTX 9500 will destroy the RF Power 2 across the board. The subwoofer is designed (like you said) way more efficiently, thus requiring less power to gain the same end result. The Rockford T2 has a minimum wrms of 1,000 while the JL and the MTX have a minimum of around 450-500 and a max wrms of 1,000. Giving room for amplifier adaptation. I have seen that underpowering a subwoofer will damage it much faster than over powering it.
Now yes... I am VERY subjective when it comes to Audiobahn. Guilty as charged. IMO they are crap speakers that were made to look pretty and post big power stats. Sound is crap and SPL (while moderately high) is extremely muddy. I cannot prove this, but I honestly think that Audiobahn produces Subwoofers with requirements THAT high... in order to corner the amplifier market as well. There are very few affordable amplifiers that will produce anywhere near the power needed to power a high endAudiobahn subwoofer setup. Then the amplifiers are just as poorly built.
Focal makes a line dedicated to higher output:
http://www.focal-fr.com/car/en/k2power/index.htm
You are correct... they do have many different lines. However, I only referred to the Utopia line in my post (other than the short subwoofer reference) I have heard the k2power components in a store here in korea... but never in an application. I can only speak on what I have seen/heard.
I think the word you're looking for is "efficiency". It will take more power to develop the same SPL with a lower efficiency driver.
That is exactly what I'm talking about. Why would you want a low efficiency driver that will cost you twice as much weight in amplifiers, capacitors, batteries, alternators etc... when you can just spend a tenth of the cost of those add-ins and get a more efficient driver to do the job well. I would much rather have one or two good drivers with one solid amp... than many subwoofers cluttering my car and 400lbs of amplifiers packed in my trunk... producing the same SPL... and possibly less SQ.
I'm glad you like your Focals. Let's not push what's subjective (sound quality) as objective - suggesting that the Utopia is the best speaker ever. Polk's SR series, MB Quart's QSD series, etc., are all very good speakers - in the right installer and tuner's hands. Let the user decide what he/she feels is "the best".
I'll concede to that. In my opinion... after owning the Utopias... I will stick with Utopias or equivalent. There are MANY other GREAT brands... do not misunderstand me. I have a couple cars and I am actually very partial to Boston Acoustics and MB Quarts as well. But let it be known that even though I run those in my cars/truck, comparing them to Utopias,Brax,CDT is like apples and oranges. It's a different kind of speaker.
If you want an audiophile-like setup without breaking the bank... here's the recipe (in my opinion):
Head Unit: Im partial to Alpine and Nakamichi but Nakamichi is overpriced and Alpine has been falling off lately. Pioneer has a very good line right now. HU is a matter of preference for which model.
Front components: MB Quart QSC216 6.5" 2way
Rear Fill: Image Dynamics CX64 6.5" Midbass Drivers
Amplified by: US Amps XT 1600.4 (100wrms x 4 @ 4Ohm)
Subwoofers: Two 11" elemental designs eD 11Ov.2
Powered by elemental designs NINe.2x amplifier (450w x 2 @ 2Ohm)
Total Price... Roughly $1,500 for all of it. (depending on the HU)
and honestly... with that setup... you may not have competion level SPL... but you will be more than what you would WANT to listen to normally. Not to mention its well rounded and very high fidelity.
But once again... very subjective. More trying to show that Im not all Utopia and JL. those are my preferences but there are MANY high quality affordable setups out there that will blow away some of the expensive ones (so long as the application is well thought out)
There are numerous reasons that would make buying from an authorized dealer beneficial. Warranty, customer support, product knowledge/application, etc. FYI: I'm NOT a JL Audio dealer. This holds true for any brand - buying in a store vs. online/used is a difference in service that the client will have to decide if it's worth the potential savings vs. risk.
Oh I agree with you 100% on that. I happened across this thread on accident while checking on my components in the marketplace and saw that he was looking at JL audio subwoofers and figured that if he did opt to go that route... and didn't mind a 6 month old subwoofer, he could get it at half the price from me. By all means... If you have the money... get them new for sure. I bought them new. I bought the PG Amp new as well. I really wish there were more variable impedence amps out there actually. It makes it very convenient to not have to worry about what Ohm rating the speakers are when the amp adjusts to it automatically and still pushes the full solid 1200w at any Ohm rating(btw... typo on my sig where it says 1400.1)
I'm not trying to start a war here, rather debunk some of the myths about car audio...
haha... No hard feelings here. I am always open for debate and criticism. I love other people's opinions. IT helps me to see the other side of things sometimes when I just can't seem to play devil's advocate.
I suggest everyone read www.bcae1.com - it's a great resource for all experience levels.
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
I have to completely disagree with you on that. Really loud does NOT necessarily mean LOTS of power. then again... LOTS of power is also subjective.
ORIGINAL: csuflyboy
Since you said "really loud", there's no way around it - you're going to want LOTS of power, and big speakers...especially for rap/r&b/hip hop. I would suggest at least (2) 12"s, and more than 1000 watts.
Since you said "really loud", there's no way around it - you're going to want LOTS of power, and big speakers...especially for rap/r&b/hip hop. I would suggest at least (2) 12"s, and more than 1000 watts.
I Use Audiobahn as an example because it is a very blatant and extreme version of what Im talking about. Believe it or not, they have actually toned it down a bit lately. for a while... they had subwoofers that handled 4,500 wrms. that is stupid.
Audiobahn in particular... ups the power tolerance on their subwoofers, allowing them to run on ridiculous power levels. When I speak of abusive high power hungry subwoofers... I am particularly speaking of Audiobahn and the RF Power 2 AKA HE2, T2. These subwoofers... while very good subwoofers (The Rockfords, not the Audiobahn)... are built in such a way that they require more power to put out the same level of sound. They are designed this way so that the end user will see that these subwoofers are "1,000 wrms/ea" and immediately think they are SPL superior to an MTX 9500 for example. Well, that just is not the case. The MTX 9500 will destroy the RF Power 2 across the board. The subwoofer is designed (like you said) way more efficiently, thus requiring less power to gain the same end result. The Rockford T2 has a minimum wrms of 1,000 while the JL and the MTX have a minimum of around 450-500 and a max wrms of 1,000. Giving room for amplifier adaptation. I have seen that underpowering a subwoofer will damage it much faster than over powering it.
Now yes... I am VERY subjective when it comes to Audiobahn. Guilty as charged. IMO they are crap speakers that were made to look pretty and post big power stats. Sound is crap and SPL (while moderately high) is extremely muddy. I cannot prove this, but I honestly think that Audiobahn produces Subwoofers with requirements THAT high... in order to corner the amplifier market as well. There are very few affordable amplifiers that will produce anywhere near the power needed to power a high endAudiobahn subwoofer setup. Then the amplifiers are just as poorly built.
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
Focal makes great components. You do not want their subwoofers though if you're looking for loud....focal makes extremely high end components and equally as high end subwoofers, but they are made for sound quality and do not put out the pure volume of sound you're looking for....
Focal makes great components. You do not want their subwoofers though if you're looking for loud....focal makes extremely high end components and equally as high end subwoofers, but they are made for sound quality and do not put out the pure volume of sound you're looking for....
http://www.focal-fr.com/car/en/k2power/index.htm
You are correct... they do have many different lines. However, I only referred to the Utopia line in my post (other than the short subwoofer reference) I have heard the k2power components in a store here in korea... but never in an application. I can only speak on what I have seen/heard.
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
I am currently running JL audio 12w7 12" subwoofers in my car running on a Phoenix gold xenon variable impedence (subs and amp are for sale right now actually) amp with under 1,000 watts per sub and I have blown away many a douchebag with ridiculous power going to their subs. Guys running 3,000 watts per sub to Audiobahn garbage mostly. A lot of brands hike up the power tolerances of their subs because alot of naive people out there will judge an audio application's merit on wattage. You do not need high wattage to have high SPL. focal makes extremely high end components and equally as high end subwoofers, but they are made for sound quality and do not put out the pure volume of sound you're looking for. I would go with either an MTX 9500 series subwoofer (an incredible piece of engineering) or a JL w7 series subwoofer (best all aroundSPL and clarity subwoofer out there). most of the other big brands... they may put out equal numbers... but they require way too much power. for instance... rockford HE2 (t2) subs are right up there with the other two brands... however if you run more than one... you'll probably need an extra battery. You can get as much if not better SPL (loudness) from the JL or MTX as any of the others... without having to run 4 amplifiers and 3 batteries.
I am currently running JL audio 12w7 12" subwoofers in my car running on a Phoenix gold xenon variable impedence (subs and amp are for sale right now actually) amp with under 1,000 watts per sub and I have blown away many a douchebag with ridiculous power going to their subs. Guys running 3,000 watts per sub to Audiobahn garbage mostly. A lot of brands hike up the power tolerances of their subs because alot of naive people out there will judge an audio application's merit on wattage. You do not need high wattage to have high SPL. focal makes extremely high end components and equally as high end subwoofers, but they are made for sound quality and do not put out the pure volume of sound you're looking for. I would go with either an MTX 9500 series subwoofer (an incredible piece of engineering) or a JL w7 series subwoofer (best all aroundSPL and clarity subwoofer out there). most of the other big brands... they may put out equal numbers... but they require way too much power. for instance... rockford HE2 (t2) subs are right up there with the other two brands... however if you run more than one... you'll probably need an extra battery. You can get as much if not better SPL (loudness) from the JL or MTX as any of the others... without having to run 4 amplifiers and 3 batteries.
That is exactly what I'm talking about. Why would you want a low efficiency driver that will cost you twice as much weight in amplifiers, capacitors, batteries, alternators etc... when you can just spend a tenth of the cost of those add-ins and get a more efficient driver to do the job well. I would much rather have one or two good drivers with one solid amp... than many subwoofers cluttering my car and 400lbs of amplifiers packed in my trunk... producing the same SPL... and possibly less SQ.
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
Im sorry guy.. Focal Utopia components are not even in the same frigging league... no scratch that... not even in the same galaxy as polk audio, infinity, mb quarts etc... Utopias and CDTs are 2345623462456245 times better than anything you will EVER find at circuit city... thats a friggin joke to even compare the two.
I paid $1,100 for my Focal Utopia 3way components 3 years ago and I can assure you that they are worth every penny and I will never buy an inside speaker from anywhere else ever again... except for MAYBE CDT eurosports.
Im sorry guy.. Focal Utopia components are not even in the same frigging league... no scratch that... not even in the same galaxy as polk audio, infinity, mb quarts etc... Utopias and CDTs are 2345623462456245 times better than anything you will EVER find at circuit city... thats a friggin joke to even compare the two.
I paid $1,100 for my Focal Utopia 3way components 3 years ago and I can assure you that they are worth every penny and I will never buy an inside speaker from anywhere else ever again... except for MAYBE CDT eurosports.
I'll concede to that. In my opinion... after owning the Utopias... I will stick with Utopias or equivalent. There are MANY other GREAT brands... do not misunderstand me. I have a couple cars and I am actually very partial to Boston Acoustics and MB Quarts as well. But let it be known that even though I run those in my cars/truck, comparing them to Utopias,Brax,CDT is like apples and oranges. It's a different kind of speaker.
If you want an audiophile-like setup without breaking the bank... here's the recipe (in my opinion):
Head Unit: Im partial to Alpine and Nakamichi but Nakamichi is overpriced and Alpine has been falling off lately. Pioneer has a very good line right now. HU is a matter of preference for which model.
Front components: MB Quart QSC216 6.5" 2way
Rear Fill: Image Dynamics CX64 6.5" Midbass Drivers
Amplified by: US Amps XT 1600.4 (100wrms x 4 @ 4Ohm)
Subwoofers: Two 11" elemental designs eD 11Ov.2
Powered by elemental designs NINe.2x amplifier (450w x 2 @ 2Ohm)
Total Price... Roughly $1,500 for all of it. (depending on the HU)
and honestly... with that setup... you may not have competion level SPL... but you will be more than what you would WANT to listen to normally. Not to mention its well rounded and very high fidelity.
But once again... very subjective. More trying to show that Im not all Utopia and JL. those are my preferences but there are MANY high quality affordable setups out there that will blow away some of the expensive ones (so long as the application is well thought out)
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
IF you choose to go with JL, you'd be way better off buying them used. If not from me, then from somewhere else. those damn things are expensive.
IF you choose to go with JL, you'd be way better off buying them used. If not from me, then from somewhere else. those damn things are expensive.
Oh I agree with you 100% on that. I happened across this thread on accident while checking on my components in the marketplace and saw that he was looking at JL audio subwoofers and figured that if he did opt to go that route... and didn't mind a 6 month old subwoofer, he could get it at half the price from me. By all means... If you have the money... get them new for sure. I bought them new. I bought the PG Amp new as well. I really wish there were more variable impedence amps out there actually. It makes it very convenient to not have to worry about what Ohm rating the speakers are when the amp adjusts to it automatically and still pushes the full solid 1200w at any Ohm rating(btw... typo on my sig where it says 1400.1)
I'm not trying to start a war here, rather debunk some of the myths about car audio...
haha... No hard feelings here. I am always open for debate and criticism. I love other people's opinions. IT helps me to see the other side of things sometimes when I just can't seem to play devil's advocate.
I suggest everyone read www.bcae1.com - it's a great resource for all experience levels.
#12
07-07-2007, 12:34 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
Systems in general are sooooo opinionated because 1 person may have knowledge of a certain brand and another person has knowledge of a different brand. Also each installer has different techniques which cause "differences" in opinions. In the end its all about the consumer and what they want to spend their money on.
I am partial to Memphis subs & amps because I personally have seen/heard them do some shi!. I could suggest 1 Memphis Mojo in a well built ported box that would rock your world. http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/
I am partial to Memphis subs & amps because I personally have seen/heard them do some shi!. I could suggest 1 Memphis Mojo in a well built ported box that would rock your world. http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/
#13
07-07-2007, 05:31 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud??
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud??
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
#14
07-07-2007, 05:32 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud??
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud??
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
#15
07-07-2007, 06:10 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
A 10" can supply more "tight" bass Vs a 12" which would be better for longer bass beats like heard in rap/r&b. The 12" is a very good all a round sub for those that want big bass with out much sacrafice to the tight punch. As far as mixing brands its fair game as long as you dont mix subs. (ex: 1-10" and 1-12" or 1 JL sub and 1 Focal) Personally I favor clarity over loudness because I want to listen to my music in the clearest way possible. If you had 2 speakers and the loudest one sounded like it had a cloth over it and the other was crystal clear, which one would you want to listen to? I am not familar with Focal's but I think that its safe to say my analogy is exagerated but gives you a good idea of what was explained by the others.
#16
07-07-2007, 08:51 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
i didnt read too much of thiis thread so dont yell if i missed this and it was already said.....
For what u get JL is kinda expensive.
If you want something really nice and not too expensive at all then Go with a kicker(stillwater designs), polk momo's, or something liek that. Theres no needs for extreme 5000 watts systems. Ide say rock out to something with 800-1500 watt RMS. for an amp and just use one 12 inch nice sub like a Kicker L5 or L7.
Just make sure when buying for car audio you do NOT cheap out, cause you will be able to tell and it will show.
For what u get JL is kinda expensive.
If you want something really nice and not too expensive at all then Go with a kicker(stillwater designs), polk momo's, or something liek that. Theres no needs for extreme 5000 watts systems. Ide say rock out to something with 800-1500 watt RMS. for an amp and just use one 12 inch nice sub like a Kicker L5 or L7.
Just make sure when buying for car audio you do NOT cheap out, cause you will be able to tell and it will show.
#17
07-08-2007, 03:12 AM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
ORIGINAL: lazyjayz
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud?? Focal subwoofers will be about as clean and crisp as you can get... however, they sacrifice alot of SPL (volume) to do this. I would say 3 focal subwoofers would be needed to produce the same SPL as 2 of most other high end subs (JL, MTX, RF)
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud?? Focal subwoofers will be about as clean and crisp as you can get... however, they sacrifice alot of SPL (volume) to do this. I would say 3 focal subwoofers would be needed to produce the same SPL as 2 of most other high end subs (JL, MTX, RF)
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
#18
07-08-2007, 11:09 AM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
ORIGINAL: lazyjayz
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud?? Focal subwoofers will be about as clean and crisp as you can get... however, they sacrifice alot of SPL (volume) to do this. I would say 3 focal subwoofers would be needed to produce the same SPL as 2 of most other high end subs (JL, MTX, RF)
With subwoofers... clarity has a few degrees. For the most part, most people never run subwoofers in stereo. When you do... the subs don't necessarily hit at the same time and it doesn't sound very good. Most subwoofers just aren't clear enough to sound good run in stereo. Focal subwoofers... you can run in stereo and they sound great. However, they are not designed to be played at high volumes. Focal subs are normally bought by either a) people with way too much money that want to show it off (they will buy a bunch of focal subs and run them NOT in stereo and be able to turn them really loud) or b) people that listen primarily to jazz, classical music at moderate volume levels and want the absolute best clarity in all the speakers and dont mind keeping the volume at a reasonable leverl to get it.
Like I previously stated... if you don't plan on playing your music at very high levels and want the absolute best quality bass... go with the Focals. http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=4943
Otherwise, go with an:
MTX T9500
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2206
JL 12w7
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2066
or Image Dynamics IDMAX-12D2.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2031
As far as the better bass from a 10" subwoofer, 10's have a very PUNCHY bass that hits very sharp in contrast to a 15". a 12" sub is the best of both worlds because a high-end 12" sub (like the 3 I just named) will hit just as clean as just about any 10" sub. The thick rubber surround on high end subwoofers make this possible by keeping a very tight and egressive exursion the retains the tightness of bass at high levels. for the most part, your 12" subwoofers with soft foam surrounds display the property he mentioned above where it is noticeably different and less punchy than a 10" sub because the cone doesn't "bounce back" nearly as quickly.
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
wow this is a very interesting read guys...
neurotic first of all, I acutally dont mind getting the jls and if they're in good condition i might consider getting them off you, but what you said about the focals interests me. You said that they have really good sound quality but in terms of loudness i shouldnt use them. What i dont get is what do you mean when you say the sound quailty of the subs were good but they weren't loud?? Focal subwoofers will be about as clean and crisp as you can get... however, they sacrifice alot of SPL (volume) to do this. I would say 3 focal subwoofers would be needed to produce the same SPL as 2 of most other high end subs (JL, MTX, RF)
With subwoofers... clarity has a few degrees. For the most part, most people never run subwoofers in stereo. When you do... the subs don't necessarily hit at the same time and it doesn't sound very good. Most subwoofers just aren't clear enough to sound good run in stereo. Focal subwoofers... you can run in stereo and they sound great. However, they are not designed to be played at high volumes. Focal subs are normally bought by either a) people with way too much money that want to show it off (they will buy a bunch of focal subs and run them NOT in stereo and be able to turn them really loud) or b) people that listen primarily to jazz, classical music at moderate volume levels and want the absolute best clarity in all the speakers and dont mind keeping the volume at a reasonable leverl to get it.
Like I previously stated... if you don't plan on playing your music at very high levels and want the absolute best quality bass... go with the Focals. http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=4943
Otherwise, go with an:
MTX T9500
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2206
JL 12w7
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2066
or Image Dynamics IDMAX-12D2.
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?...roduct_ID=2031
As far as the better bass from a 10" subwoofer, 10's have a very PUNCHY bass that hits very sharp in contrast to a 15". a 12" sub is the best of both worlds because a high-end 12" sub (like the 3 I just named) will hit just as clean as just about any 10" sub. The thick rubber surround on high end subwoofers make this possible by keeping a very tight and egressive exursion the retains the tightness of bass at high levels. for the most part, your 12" subwoofers with soft foam surrounds display the property he mentioned above where it is noticeably different and less punchy than a 10" sub because the cone doesn't "bounce back" nearly as quickly.
many if not most of you suggeste that i should get 2 12' Jl subs, but i've also read that when compared to the smaller subs like 10', 12 in. subs cant keep up when the tempo is really fast. is that true for the Jl subs or is this some kind of myth?
so my bottom line question is still this.. focals or jls? you guys said focals are higher quality but is the difference between the two really that noticeable?
could i go with say Jl subs in the trunk and focals inside the car or some other kind of mix subs and speakers and amps that wont sacrfice too much sound quality and loudness while getting me a lower price than outfitting my entire car with high end speakers?
#19
07-08-2007, 04:23 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
ORIGINAL: new2me
A 10" can supply more "tight" bass Vs a 12" which would be better for longer bass beats like heard in rap/r&b. The 12" is a very good all a round sub for those that want big bass with out much sacrafice to the tight punch.
A 10" can supply more "tight" bass Vs a 12" which would be better for longer bass beats like heard in rap/r&b. The 12" is a very good all a round sub for those that want big bass with out much sacrafice to the tight punch.
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
As far as the better bass from a 10" subwoofer, 10's have a very PUNCHY bass that hits very sharp in contrast to a 15". a 12" sub is the best of both worlds because a high-end 12" sub (like the 3 I just named) will hit just as clean as just about any 10" sub. The thick rubber surround on high end subwoofers make this possible by keeping a very tight and egressive exursion the retains the tightness of bass at high levels. for the most part, your 12" subwoofers with soft foam surrounds display the property he mentioned above where it is noticeably different and less punchy than a 10" sub because the cone doesn't "bounce back" nearly as quickly.
This is a myth. The enclosure's volume dermines the "Q", and thus "fast/slow" bass. You can easily make any size speaker sound terrible in the wrong enclsoure, and vice versa, you can have excellent bass with that same speaker in it's proper enclsoure. For example, a speaker in a larger than recommended enclosure will sound sloppy. This is because the speaker does not possess enough of it's own damping to control the cone. It needs a smaller sized enclosure for the "air spring" (internal damping) to help control cone movement. Conversly, if you have a speaker in too small of an enclosure, the low end will start rolling off much to quickly, and the enclosure will start compromising output. Most people find a "Q" of .7 to be ideal.
Please see: http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=147 for more information
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
With subwoofers... clarity has a few degrees. For the most part, most people never run subwoofers in stereo. When you do... the subs don't necessarily hit at the same time and it doesn't sound very good. Most subwoofers just aren't clear enough to sound good run in stereo.
Again, this is a myth. The decision to run subwoofers in stereo/mono is usually determined by the amplifier's output at a given load and/or the enclosure design (shared chambers?). Most bass (<~50Hz) is mono anyway. The subs "hitting at the same time" will be determined by the music, and CAN HELP provide spacial cues (especially in acoustic music) - for example - with subwoofers mounted in the front of the vehicle. Any subwoofer will be "clear enough"...
ORIGINAL: neur0tic
Focal subwoofers... you can run in stereo and they sound great. However, they are not designed to be played at high volumes. Focal subs are normally bought by either a) people with way too much money that want to show it off (they will buy a bunch of focal subs and run them NOT in stereo and be able to turn them really loud) or b) people that listen primarily to jazz, classical music at moderate volume levels and want the absolute best clarity in all the speakers and dont mind keeping the volume at a reasonable leverl to get it.
Like I previously stated... if you don't plan on playing your music at very high levels and want the absolute best quality bass... go with the Focals.
Like I previously stated... if you don't plan on playing your music at very high levels and want the absolute best quality bass... go with the Focals.
Focal does manufacture high output models. Running stereo/mono has nothing to do with output. It's poor form to associate a speaker manufacturer's demographic and application. There are several other subwoofers that can easily perform as well as Focal. The bottom line: it's all about application: amplifier power, enclosure design, driver selection, etc.
#20
07-08-2007, 04:49 PM
RE: What are the best subs to install?
ORIGINAL: csuflyboy
Focal does manufacture high output models. Running stereo/mono has nothing to do with output. It's poor form to associate a speaker manufacturer's demographic and application. There are several other subwoofers that can easily perform as well as Focal. The bottom line: it's all about application: amplifier power, enclosure design, driver selection, etc.
Focal does manufacture high output models. Running stereo/mono has nothing to do with output. It's poor form to associate a speaker manufacturer's demographic and application. There are several other subwoofers that can easily perform as well as Focal. The bottom line: it's all about application: amplifier power, enclosure design, driver selection, etc.
As for it being a myth that the size of a speaker causes the sound to be tighter; come on man... it's like you said, science will win every time. The size and surface area of the cone play a part in how long it takes for the speaker to cycle a bass tone. Yes, you can design an enclosure to greatly affect how well the driver bounces back and so forth.. but in keeping with that...
If you create a box that can make a 12" subwoofer cycle a bass tone as quickly and tight as a 10" subwoofer... what would you have if you designed that same box for the 10" subwoofer? I'll tell you... an even tighter bass hit. No matter how you design the box... the 12" will stillhave more cone to move and a further distance to move it.
ORIGINAL: csuflyboy
The subs "hitting at the same time" will be determined by the music, and CAN HELP provide spacial cues (especially in acoustic music)
The subs "hitting at the same time" will be determined by the music, and CAN HELP provide spacial cues (especially in acoustic music)