Nitrous, Super Chargers, & Turbos All charged talk about going, and going FAST!

nitrous on my tial 605 audi s4

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Old 11-10-2010, 08:13 PM
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Default nitrous on my tial 605 audi s4

what do i have to do to put a bottle on my 2000 audi s4 with tial 605 turbo kit
what do i have to worry about
 
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:40 PM
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nitrous and turbos don't naturally mix... unless you have a seriously beefy bottom end.
 
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Old 11-11-2010, 01:55 PM
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You will need to have it tuned for the nitrous and even then most people only use nitrous on turbo cars to get very larger turbos to spool up quicker or strictly for drag racing. Nitrous will cause the cylinders/rings to wear quicker, which means you will have to refresh the motor more often.
 
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
You will need to have it tuned for the nitrous and even then most people only use nitrous on turbo cars to get very larger turbos to spool up quicker or strictly for drag racing. Nitrous will cause the cylinders/rings to wear quicker, which means you will have to refresh the motor more often.
Nitrous, if used correctly, doesn't cause any more premature wear to the engine than any other power adder (anything you do to get more power is going to wear the engine out quicker than normal usage), and is actually the safest for big power when compared to a snail or a supercharger.
As you said though, most snail/n2o combinations are set up using the nitrous to spool up the snail quicker than the exhaust alone would.
It can also be set up to spray the intercooler giving much lower intake temps and therefore more power. I think this is the best route to go if you want to use a bottle fed system with a turbo, and, since it's not spraying anything into the engine itself, I'd recommend a co2 system instead of n2o for that type of application, just because it's much cheaper to refill the bottle and gives the same results.
 
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Old 12-06-2010, 02:40 PM
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I have seen what happens to a motor when using nitrous often. It does in fact wear the cylinder/rings quicker which means having to rebuild the motor more often then not using Nitrous. There is/was an S4 here in socal that used it all the time for events.

I know for a fact that Easy Street uses it on their STI that they use for drag racing and he is always going thru motors. Plus its not hard to get a engine fire or nitrous back fire, hell you can see these all the time at any racing event, there was a GTO that blew up at one of the Pinks All Out events so saying its safer then running a turbo is like saying putting a gun to your head with a bullet in the chamber is saver then doing the same thign with a squirt gun. lol


They only advantage Nitrous has is the fact that it is cheaper to put into the car but has to be refilled and the user must make sure the bottle temps are consistant.

No real reason to use nitrous on a set of Tial turbos, just drive it in the power band.
 
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:09 AM
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I hope this is taken as discussion and not argumentative. I'm 41 years old and have been watching, wrenching, racing and learning about cars since I was about 11. I did my first brake job when I was 12. My first car was an N/A 11.5 second 1970 Pontiac LeMans. In the past 25 years, I've picked up a few tiny morsels of knowledge and I'm just enjoying a discussion, I don't want it to turn into anything more or tweak anyone's feelings.

You'll notice that I said when used correctly nitrous is safer for the motor. That's not my opinion, that's the automotive industry opinion. (I can hunt down the sources for it if someone really wants to see them)

As far as premature ring wear from n2o; have they ran the same engine with a turbo, or supercharger to compare wear vs. nitrous? Unless they have, it's not fair to blame it on the juice. Like I said, any mods that add power to an engine will cause more wear than a stock motor experiences. I think you'll find that race teams running turbos or superchargers rebuild their race engines just as frequently, if not more than, the ones running the bottle mainly because they're shoving hot air into the motor as opposed to the cooler air from the n2o setup.

Most of the n2o backfires and explosions at the track are caused by guys that are hitting the juice on the line (often hitting the activation button instead of the purge accidentally or, if using the WOT switch, hitting WOT and relying on a two step not thinking that it's going to spray the engine because even though the revs aren't up, the throttle is still wide open), aren't dumping enough extra fuel to compensate for the nitrous or have a driver controlled activation switch (as opposed to a WOT switch) and in the excitement, they forget to let go of the button for shifts or when they close the throttle. Occasionally, they decided to change to a bigger shot at the last minute and if it's a wet kit, forget to change both pills, or if it's a dry kit, forget to have the system compensate for the extra air. You never, ever spray a car sitting still; that will definitely backfire through the intake if you're lucky, or blow the motor if you're not. Every n2o manufacturer I know of tells you not to hit the juice in first gear, or under 2600 rpms. If people choose to ignore those warnings, they're going to have issues.
I've seen guys with turbos turn the boost up and blow their engines more often than I've seen nitrous related problems.

Those guys on Pinks are usually guys that have a kit but haven't had much chance to spray it. How many times have you heard a guy say "This is it's first time down the strip?" on the show. It seems like at least once every time I see it.

Your loaded gun/squirt gun comparison is completely unfair. If your nitrous setup gives up and quits working one of two things happen. Either you get no spray, or a solenoid sticks open and you keep getting spray. The first one is no big deal. The second one is, I'll admit, a problem, but rarely happens, and is usually caused by an improperly installed and maintained system, i.e. no filter in the line letting debris get into the solenoid. If your turbo or SC gives up, you're looking at sucking shrapnel into the engine or a seized impeller that impedes airflow.

I personally know guys that have been spraying their H series and F series Honda motors with 75 and 100 shots on a daily basis for literally years without having to rebuild the engine. I also know guys that have ran turbo and have ran n2o (seperately) and they swear by the bottle over the snail. They do, however, miss the BOV noise.

As far as the expense of filling the bottle; I think we can safely say that a halfway decent turbo set up will run you at least $2500, and that's probably on the low end of decent. For that $2500, I can buy a brand new wet kit, and 400 lbs of nitrous oxide at Jegs ($5.00 a lb). At two of the tracks I was at this past season, they were selling it for $3.00 a lb, so I can refill my 5 lb bottle between 80 and 133 times. That's a LOT of passes in the 1/4 mile.

Plus, I don't have to worry about my wife accidentally getting on the throttle and having the turbo kick in and the car get away from her. (Not that it's an issue, I can't get her to open it up even with the bottle out of it so I can hear it from outside the car. I only know what I sound like from inside the cabin and in videos. She's afraid she'll break it or lose control of it with the tires spinning and make me mad at her. I try to tell her she'll never drive it as hard as I do. lol) It takes a conscious act of will to use my n2o, whereas turbos and superchargers are just a throttle blip away.

I'm not trying to say the bottle is better than the snail, they both have their own pros and cons. I'm just trying to say that it's not as dangerous as the reputation it's received when used correctly and it can be a nice addition to a turbo setup, especially when used to spray the intercooler to cool the incoming air charge from the turbo. (I'd still go for a co2 kit for that though.)
 
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by visualpoet View Post
I hope this is taken as discussion and not argumentative. I'm 41 years old and have been watching, wrenching, racing and learning about cars since I was about 11. I did my first brake job when I was 12. My first car was an N/A 11.5 second 1970 Pontiac LeMans. In the past 25 years, I've picked up a few tiny morsels of knowledge and I'm just enjoying a discussion, I don't want it to turn into anything more or tweak anyone's feelings.
Well then I guess that makes 2 of us seeing that I am just slightly older then you at 43 and have been drag racing my own A4 for 10 years which runs mid 10's.

Every n2o manufacturer I know of tells you not to hit the juice in first gear, or under 2600 rpms. If people choose to ignore those warnings, they're going to have issues.
I've seen guys with turbos turn the boost up and blow their engines more often than I've seen nitrous related problems.
Well that is easy to follow for a NA car, but seeing that most turbo owners that add nitrous are doing it to spool the turbo up at the track then whats the point of that if you CANT do it in 1st gear when launching. Might as well just use anti lag to produce high enough boost levels to get the car off the line. Sure it can be safe, but it is not 100% fool proof now is it? Ask anyone that is running and they will tell you that there is always going to be a chance of something going wrong. Easier to keep that % down for a person that is only using it at the track, but much higher for someone using it on their daily driver and maybe even on the street. It isn't like that person is checking every single little thing on the car before starting it up like you find people doing on a track car.


Only time a turbo owner is going to blow up the motor from turning up the boost too much for the pump gas they are running or if they are trying to make more power then the stock rods can handle. Hell I am pushing 37psi on my A4 and thats going from 25psi to 32 psi and then straight to 37psi when I swapped to a turbo with a undamaged exhaust wheel. It didn't blow up because my engine has stronger rods and my car is tuned for race gas which can handle the higher boost levels.

Those guys on Pinks are usually guys that have a kit but haven't had much chance to spray it. How many times have you heard a guy say "This is it's first time down the strip?" on the show. It seems like at least once every time I see it.
I rarely heare them say that, I do hear them say "I haven't made a pass in some time" or have never made a pass with this setup, but it isn't like those people that are running nitrous haven't used it before if they are running at pinks all out. Seeing that pinks all out is about being a consistant driver and having a consistant car, why would someone show up that has never been down the track? They wouldn't seeing that its not being the fastest car.



As far as the expense of filling the bottle; I think we can safely say that a halfway decent turbo set up will run you at least $2500, and that's probably on the low end of decent. For that $2500, I can buy a brand new wet kit, and 400 lbs of nitrous oxide at Jegs ($5.00 a lb). At two of the tracks I was at this past season, they were selling it for $3.00 a lb, so I can refill my 5 lb bottle between 80 and 133 times. That's a LOT of passes in the 1/4 mile.
Sure it is cheap, this is why they call it the cheap mans power. But the simple fact is that power is only there when the bottle is turned on which isn't when your driving to the store or driving back and forth from work like you get from force induction. Plus no need to make sure the turbo is at the right temp before using it or worry about it killing you if it springs a leak.



Plus, I don't have to worry about my wife accidentally getting on the throttle and having the turbo kick in and the car get away from her. (Not that it's an issue, I can't get her to open it up even with the bottle out of it so I can hear it from outside the car. I only know what I sound like from inside the cabin and in videos. She's afraid she'll break it or lose control of it with the tires spinning and make me mad at her. I try to tell her she'll never drive it as hard as I do. lol) It takes a conscious act of will to use my n2o, whereas turbos and superchargers are just a throttle blip away.
A issue with FWD/RWD, which is why man invented QUATTRO and why we go turbo like I said up above, because that power is in fact a throttle blip away


I'm not trying to say the bottle is better than the snail, they both have their own pros and cons. I'm just trying to say that it's not as dangerous as the reputation it's received when used correctly and it can be a nice addition to a turbo setup, especially when used to spray the intercooler to cool the incoming air charge from the turbo. (I'd still go for a co2 kit for that though.)
No need to use either to cool the intercooler if the right size intercooler is being used. This is why there is no Nitrous or C02 setups on my A4 even at 800+hp. Even on a pull from zero to 140+ mph my IC is still nice and cool after the run. Never even had heat soak issues while doing 10+ back to back runs on a dyno with just a small fan running in front of it.



Nitrous is not something that tends to be used on our turbo cars, this is why nearly everyone upgrades the turbo to get more power. I bet its a 99.9999% turbo upgrade vs nitrous bottle added. Funny part is that nearly all of the people that do add the bottle to a turbo Audi/VW is doing it on their show car and never actually using the nitrous, hell I bet most of them have never even put nitrous inside the bottle that is in their turbo Audi/VW. Its all about looks not actual function.
 
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:17 PM
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BTW comparing a nitrous bottle kit to a $2500 turbo kit is comparing apples to oranges. Better to compare it to the price of just the turbo seeing that there is way more to it then just throwing a nitrous bottle kit into a car. That is basically just hardware and as we all know when installing nitrous or a turbo the tuning must change. Plus if your talking about running a safer nitrous setup, there are the cost of controllers on top of the bottle kit and tuning.
 
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
Well then I guess that makes 2 of us seeing that I am just slightly older then you at 43 and have been drag racing my own A4 for 10 years which runs mid 10's.
I checked out your video, she's a quick beast!



Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
Well that is easy to follow for a NA car, but seeing that most turbo owners that add nitrous are doing it to spool the turbo up at the track then whats the point of that if you CANT do it in 1st gear when launching. Might as well just use anti lag to produce high enough boost levels to get the car off the line. Sure it can be safe, but it is not 100% fool proof now is it? Ask anyone that is running and they will tell you that there is always going to be a chance of something going wrong. Easier to keep that % down for a person that is only using it at the track, but much higher for someone using it on their daily driver and maybe even on the street. It isn't like that person is checking every single little thing on the car before starting it up like you find people doing on a track car.
It's been my experience that the turbo guys using nitrous to spool up are spraying into the exhaust, before the turbo, so hitting it in first gear wouldn't give you the same problems as hitting an NA motor with it in first, where the tires have a tendency to break loose and spin, causing the engine to almost instantly climb past the redline. With a turbo car and the exhaust injection, the wastegate would release the extra pressure until the trottle was wide open, which would make launching a little more manageable IMO. I do know guys that spray their NA cars in first, but they're doing it on track only cars and power transfer isn't as much of a concern since the tires are much grippier.

Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
Only time a turbo owner is going to blow up the motor from turning up the boost too much for the pump gas they are running or if they are trying to make more power then the stock rods can handle. Hell I am pushing 37psi on my A4 and thats going from 25psi to 32 psi and then straight to 37psi when I swapped to a turbo with a undamaged exhaust wheel. It didn't blow up because my engine has stronger rods and my car is tuned for race gas which can handle the higher boost levels.
You can have the same problems with nitrous. you'll see guys buy a car and throw a kit in it with no idea how to tune it or how to build a motor and then they decide to hit it with a huge shot that the motor won't handle, and that's it. I only run a 50 wet shot on the street, and a 75 at the track. One of these days I'll get out of an apartment, get a garage again and build another motor to handle more. I'm aiming for about 300 whp NA with a 150 shot. I think she'll be quick enough for me then. I know of a guy in Kentucky running a stock motor cb7 Accord with nothing but an SRI and as much weight reduction as he could get away with and still be track legal and he turns the 1/4 in the mid 13s. It almost makes me want to start ripping crap out of mine. lol


Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
I rarely heare them say that, I do hear them say "I haven't made a pass in some time" or have never made a pass with this setup, but it isn't like those people that are running nitrous haven't used it before if they are running at pinks all out. Seeing that pinks all out is about being a consistant driver and having a consistant car, why would someone show up that has never been down the track? They wouldn't seeing that its not being the fastest car.
I must have missed the All Out part. My mistake. I was thinking of the Pinks that has the three guys guessing pass times.


Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
Sure it is cheap, this is why they call it the cheap mans power. But the simple fact is that power is only there when the bottle is turned on which isn't when your driving to the store or driving back and forth from work like you get from force induction. Plus no need to make sure the turbo is at the right temp before using it or worry about it killing you if it springs a leak.
It's not so much that it has to be at the proper temperature as it is the proper bottle pressure. The reason for keeping it warm is if you're making multiple passes the bottle gets cold from the sudden release of pressure which inturn reduces the pressure in the bottle. warming it expands the gases in the bottle and raises the pressure back up to the 900-1200 psi range where you're supposed to spray.
As far as killing you if it springs a leak, if you can't smell that nasty sulfur dioxide they put in it, you shouldn't be driving anyway. Not to mention the HUGE whistling noise it makes. It's not flammable, the gas has to be over 500 some degrees before it breaks into seperate nitrogen and oxygen molecules, and the only place you'll usually see those temps are in the engine itself (although I know you turbo guys get some pretty damn hot exhaust and housings).



Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
A issue with FWD/RWD, which is why man invented QUATTRO and why we go turbo like I said up above, because that power is in fact a throttle blip away
Agreed. AWD definitely owns FWD or RWD.




Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
No need to use either to cool the intercooler if the right size intercooler is being used. This is why there is no Nitrous or C02 setups on my A4 even at 800+hp. Even on a pull from zero to 140+ mph my IC is still nice and cool after the run. Never even had heat soak issues while doing 10+ back to back runs on a dyno with just a small fan running in front of it.
It's my understanding that the reason to spray the intercooler isn't to cool it because it gets too hot, but to cause a denser charge of air thereby giving even more power.



Originally Posted by Mike-2ptzero View Post
Nitrous is not something that tends to be used on our turbo cars, this is why nearly everyone upgrades the turbo to get more power. I bet its a 99.9999% turbo upgrade vs nitrous bottle added. Funny part is that nearly all of the people that do add the bottle to a turbo Audi/VW is doing it on their show car and never actually using the nitrous, hell I bet most of them have never even put nitrous inside the bottle that is in their turbo Audi/VW. Its all about looks not actual function.
Now that's a damn shame. For the cost of a nitrous kit, I could find something better to do to my show car than put in something that's never going to get used, but makes the car look like it's faster. We call it "rice" in the Honda community. That's the equivalent of a big wing and some go fast stickers on a Civic.

I think the craziest mixed setup I've seen was a guy spraying the intercooler on his turbo 'busa. He said it made a noticable difference in the power, but that the bike gave him tunnel vision and scared the hell out of him above 200 mph.

I've enjoyed this discussion. Being part of the Honda tuner community, I usually run into young kids with very little experience but a world of attitude and bad information. They don't usually discuss, just keep spouting bad info or repeating what they've heard someone else say because they think it'll make them sound cool.
 
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:45 PM
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She would be quicker if it wasn't for blowing up 01A transmissions when pushing over 600whp. My quickest time was while only making 570whp.

I must have missed the All Out part. My mistake. I was thinking of the Pinks that has the three guys guessing pass times.
That is Pass Time. It does have one of the guys that is part of the 2 Pinks shows though, that is Ken from TX.


It's my understanding that the reason to spray the intercooler isn't to cool it because it gets too hot, but to cause a denser charge of air thereby giving even more power.
It is to make the surface of the IC colder then ambient temps causing the heat in the charge air to be sucked out quicker. Most people do this when they are using a core that is too small to handle the amount of air flow or one that heat soaks too quickly and basically delays how quickly it heat soaks.

Problem is spraying the IC mainly just cools the front surface which is just a % of the actual core. The colder the air the more dense it will be. This is why most people spray nitrous into the air flow inside the IC or in the IM, so the air temps are closer to freezing. Some do the same thing by using water/meth injection which will lower IAT's below ambient temps.

In racing nitrous being sprayed on the IC is basically looked at as a power adder just like spraying it directly into the motor. Difference is one makes way more power then the other. lol
Most event classes for street cars don't allow water/meth injection at all. But then why would they if there is a higher chance of that person watering down the track during a run.
 

Last edited by Mike-2ptzero; 12-08-2010 at 02:56 PM.
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