Ok,
So I have my 12v on an engine stand, and this week, I'll be working on putting it BACK into the car. LOL. I have looked all over for a 1.8t donor car, and even just a 1.8t longblock. I'm not able to find anything that's not going to need significant time, and more important MONEY to build. It's only about $1,500 more to buy a used good running 1.8t complete a4, than to try and swap the parts into my 2.8. So just an FYI to everyone with a car they want to do a swap to, the budget numbers to change engines exceeds the cost of just buying a new car. Even if you figure doing a majority of the labor (not including dyno time/tuning) yourself.

I was going to swap a 1.8t motor into my 96 a4 2.8 12v, get a 6spd trasns from an a6, and then build it as a BT. My best option if I really wanted a 1.8 BT build was going to be to purchase a 1.8t car outright, and then build it. I can send my budget spreadsheets to everyone interested, but I can literally buy a b5 s4 for $1,200 more already in stage 3 trim than I can build the 1.8BT/a6 trans swap into my 2.8. That IS including the cost of my a4, but I got it for a song and a dance, the 1.8t motor was a bigger line than my car cost.

I guess the point of this post is I've read ALOT of posts where the general concenus to the question "can I swap a 2.7tt into my 2.8/1.8t?" is "sell it and buy another"... that statement is a legitimate one. I can honestly say I made a go of it and can show a budget cost from several vendors to outsource parts.

This evening I'm doing upper and lower control arms and sway bar links on the passenger front to eliminate some squeaks I had, and then beginning my reinstallation of the 1/4 rebuilt 12v (new top side gaskets and checked tolerances) with 185k miles on it, and I'm going to keep her as a daily driver. I will be replacing an axle on the driver's side as well, looks worn but wasn't yet making noise, might as well while she's apart. Not another dime outside of maintenance is being put into her. Some OEM roof racks for mountain bikes, but other than that she's becoming my daily car.

I hope I've learned the lesson for everyone looking to do a swap in a b5 a4 Audi. I know others see shops like 034 doing vr6 swaps and the like, but these shops are building demo cars to show off their abilities and products. While it's a great idea on an unlimited budget, If you want chipped S4 performance out of a 1.8t, you're better off to buy an s4. If you want 1.8t BT power out of a 2.8, sell the 2.8 and buy a 1.8 and build it. Which, BTW, is a more HP/Dollar option than buying the PES S/C kit at retail pricing based on PES' dyno numbers. If you can get one for $3k or less, it's a better option than putting $3k into a 1.8t... I was totally surprised by that.

Anyway... Any quesitons feel free to ask. Tonight I'll try to post some dollar amounts to show hard $ on what I'm trying to get across here. I'll do so if I can get away from garage work. It's a rare 55 degrees here in Ohio in January, and I'm planning on taking full advantage. Plus, it's my birthday, so I'm going to try to sell my wife on trading the Saab for an S4 in the spring, and keeping what WAS a project car as a daily driver... wish me luck!

-Ryan

 

i hope people who think of doing this will search before they ask lol. post the numbers and see if the admins will make it a sticky. happy b-day man. hope the previous project didn't give you white hair haha. and i hope your a good salesman hehe

 

Way to take one for the team, dude! Henceforth, every time somebody starts asking about doing an engine swap, I'm going to post a link to this thread. Good luck trading the Saab for an S4! And enjoy your 12v; as a daily driver, I'm more than satisfied with mine.

 

1996-2001 B5 A4 Quattros

Lets start with basic car costs. I'm not discerning between model years and engine types (12v vs 30v ect), I took a random polling of 20 vehicles each with the 2.8, the 1.8t and of course the s4 with the 2.7tt. Mileage was ranging from 80k to 120k miles. all cars looked at were quattro, and varied between auto and manual transmission. These costs were retail and private owner sticker amounts, and were pulled nationwide so as to help diffuse regional pricing differances.

Average Car Costs:

2.8 - $5,701.00
1.8t - $5,204.00
s4 - $11,380.00

Now lets look at the motor costs on these cars. I got pricing from rebuilders/remanufacturers, salvage yards, and even ebay for engines with 50k or less. the point of that is to avoid a complete rebuild. I got 2 quotes from rebuilders, 3 on the 1.8 from supply yards, and 10 quotes on the 'bay (trying to ge a solid average). Keep in mind that these have to be complete longblocks with all attachments and harness/ECU. We're doing a complete swap, and need everything. Most salvage yards I called preferred that I bought a COMPLETE car for the amount of items I was taking. For s4 motors we are also including a transmission, because it doesn't mate to a factory trans in the 2.8 ot 1.8t. I didn't get pricing on the 2.8 because I figured NOONE would be swapping TO a 2.8 engine.

Average Engine Costs:
1.8t w/o trans with ECU & Harness - $2,200.00
2.7tt w/ trans, ECU, & Harness - $7,550.00

Hopefully you already see that to buy a 1.8 or 2.8 car and swap to the 2.7tt you're already at a loss. So at this point we're going to remove the 2.7tt from the equation completely. If you want the 2.7tt, bu it IN an s4.

Non Motor Swap Performance / $

Now we're going to start looking at Mods/ HP gains / and $. Everything will be based on actual dyno runs where possible, and shown in HP/$. that's what this all boils down to is performance per dollar. Baseline will be compared to a GIAC-X chipped S4. It was picked purely based on popularity and performance per dollar. APR mustang dyno shows that the S4 is pulling down 261.6 HP and 296.0 TQ. I got those numbers from REAL dyno runs at APR here: http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1185070.phtml. This chip is about $700 installed. Lets get to comparing:

GIAC Chipped s4:
Car: $11,380.00
Chip: $700.00
HP: 261
HP/$: $46/HP


Now we'll look at a PES S/C installed onto a 2.8 engine. PES claims 295 HP and 260 TQ, but actual dyno numbers are showing more like 235 HP. I've seen graphs ranging from 195 (what?!?) all the way up to 302 HP (Hard to believe). The PES is really the only big numbers game on the 2.8. Figuring retail on the PES, and $1000 for install, here's how it stacks up.

PES Charged 2.8:
Car: $5,701.00
PES SC: $6,000.00
HP: 235
HP/$: $49/HP

Now lets look at a BT Package on a 1.8T. There are about a thousand different option on how to go, but lets really look at something equivalent to the 250ish HP range on a dyno. It's going to be comparable to the chipped s4 and the PES S/C on the 2.8. the APR Stage 3 kit looks about right, showing 280HP and dynos confirming anywhere from 240-270 WHP. Kit includes intercooler, piping, Chip, 370cc injectors, DV, and a k04 Turbo. I realize you can build more for less, butI have to reel it in somehow, so this is a complete kit from online vendors.If we call install the same as the PES at $1000, Here's the Breakdown:

1.8BT (Stage 3?):
Car: $5,204.00
BT Kit: $5,499.00
HP: 255
HP/$: $41/HP

 

Engine Swap & Mod Costs

Now that all of that is calculated, you can determine the cost of a swap and mod to your car. For example: Take the 2.8 car cost cost, add the engine swap cost for the 1.8t, and then add the BT kit... assuming you can swap and install yourself here's what you get:Ouch.

2.8 to 1.8t Swap & Mod:
2.8 - $5,701.00
Parts for swap - $2,200.00
BT Kit (installed yourself) - $4,499.00
HP:255
HP/$ - $48/HP

Or

1.8t to 2.7tt Swap & Mod:
1.8t - $5204.00
2.7tt engine -$7550.00
Chip - $700
HP - 261
HP/$ - $51/HP

or

2.8 to 2.7tt Swap & Mod:
1.8t - $5701
2.7tt engine -$7550.00
Chip - $700
HP - 261
HP/$ - $53/HP

Now lets consiter something else for everyone.... We've done all of this to try to COMPETE, not beat the S4. AND all we've done to the S4 is a chip... no turbo upgrades, no nothing... just a chip. the S4 still has a ton of room for upgrades and mods. and the cost per HP goes DOWN as you mod it bigger and bigger. the gains can get huge.

I'm not looking to deter anyone from modding, and I'm not trying to preach S4... lord knows I don't have one. Sure if you get a deal on a car, like I did, the costs can sway in favor of modding what you've got. Also, I know some people buy a 1.8t and then slowly build it up, also not a terrible idea. The 1.8t is a unique engine in that smaller dollar amounts drive big gains for a while. All I'm trying to say is this: If you're looking to build, and build big, plan accordingley, know your goals, and think it through. The 1.8t is a great builder, for a ~250 WHPish car, It even beats the s4 in $/HP. Beyond that teh S4 starts to own everything. If you're looking at 300HP+, you cant beat the s4... those of you with a 2.8 that want more, well look no further than the PES. I used to rag on it, but it has good gains. Thing is it's a big bite to swallow when the 1.8t guys can slowly mod up, and as everyone already knew, it's the worst when it comes to modding a car in $/HP. If you want a PES system. best bet is to camp the SCAudi.com site and pick one up used. I saw a g2 system go for $1,800 on there in working order.

Oh, and the minute you plan on swapping the motor, unless you got a free shell of a car and have LOTS of time... you're already behind the bus. Hope this helps some folks.

-Ryan

 

alot of your numbers are way off. for the 1.8T you list a BT kit costing over 5g's yet producing only 255hp?? you could have over 400hp for that cost.

and a vr6 swap could be done for ~$8k. 034 doesn't just build demo cars to show off their skills. i believe they're using that vr6-t they've got for racing. they just won one actually. there are at least 5 vr6-t's running around out there, and im pretty sure 034 had at least a hand in all of them. if you went to their shop and asked for one, they could do it.

and there is a shop that does BT 2.7TT swaps for under 10k as well.

and in case you were curious as to what it would cost to swap in a 6 speed tranny

 

IfI used your numbers for the 2.7tt swap it'd actually be WORSE.I listed it at a little over $7k, your pricing has it at $10k. That was real world pricing. I called. Lots of places, and different sources.

This thread was never meant to bash anyone. The BT kit I priced was retail, and they listed a dyno to show it's performance. Like I said, there are dozens of options, and I wasn't going to price them all. I pulled half a dozen or so BT kits. not build it yourself but KITS. retial was listed at $4k or more on every one. i went with an average of $4,500 and added $1k for install.

Yes, you can build more power for less, but even so, it doesn't justify the cost of swapping to a 1.8t. The break even point is over $15gs... you gonna throw 15gs into a 2.8 to convert and mod itto compete with cars that cost less to build the same power? Or, would you just buy a 1.8t or s4 and start modding? that's the point.

I didn't dog 034, their build skills are awesome. My engine swap options didn't include any vr6. At all. reason being is just what you said, it's not an easy swap, and requires standalone to get the results tha 034 is getting, hence why they's had a hand in almost all of them. They build and sell the parts, from the trans adapter to the custom motor mounts. They've got the tune down. I came up with less than $40 per HP for a vr6 with 350 hp to the ground. That's over 400 hp and the crank through quattro. that's the best deal out there, but 95% of the questions are "can i swap out my 2.8 for a 2.77 ot a 1.8t?"

again,I NEVER did or would dog 034. I'm sure this thread will start debate, which is good, but don't flame.

The missed point was: if you want a 2.7tt, buy an s4, if you want a 1.8t, but the 1.8t. if you have the 2.8, either S/C it, or live with it, a swap is not worth the money. I'd wager that a solid 80% of the swap questions are from 2.8 owners frustrated at their options.

- Ryan

 

Hopefully this can end up as a sticky post at the top of the forum, or at least a link to it could be added to the Noob guide. Good looking out man - sorry to see the money you spent go somewhat to waste from a personal standpoint though.

 

never said you were bashing anyone, i was just trying to give my input. yes, there is NO reason to swap a 1.8T into a 2.8. it wouldn't cost 15g's, something more like half that, but even at that price, you could BT your 2.8 and get the same results or sell your 2.8 and buy a 1.8T. the only thing i would consider swapping into a 2.8 is a vr6.

 

Ithink there was a miscommunication, which is bound to happen based on interpretation. LOL.all i was trying to say is that a motor swap isn't a great idea. I.E. whatI had planned on doing. LOL. for the record using your info from 034 - guessing at WHP? I don't know what they ended at after tuning. last I saw they were rapidly approaching the 400WHP mark:

1.8t to 034 vr6-t Swap:
1.8t car: $5,204.00
034 vr6-t swap: $12,000.00
HP: 400?
$/hp: $43/HP