180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 282
From: San Jose
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
guys, you are taking away from the point of the thread. bottom line is that even if you are asking questions, which i fully support, on such a thread, you will make people weary of getting one. i have no monetary interest in this, so i dont care if anyone gets them, but after i make mine, you better believe you'll be taking your car to a shop to make one. what it comes down to turbo wise is this. ( simplified version)
the wastegate controlls the turbo and keps it from overspinning.
turbos overspin when not so smart people try to push them past the breaking point. ie k03 pushing 25psi on a stock everything else
a 3" DP is not necessary if you stay stock turbo. 2.5" will be enough for about 270hp crank
if the bigger the better theory was true, your car wouldnt run like **** with no exhaust at all
a turbo cant overspin by itself (from having a big DP) as there is counter pressure against it on the cold side.
hope this clears up some stuff. and when you think about the engine needing bckpressure, realize that the turbo itself is where it gets most of it from. the size of the turbine opening is smaller than a single exhaust port, so that in itself will provide you with enough backpressure for the low rpms, the rest of the exhaust provides a bit more but not something that you cant do without
the wastegate controlls the turbo and keps it from overspinning.
turbos overspin when not so smart people try to push them past the breaking point. ie k03 pushing 25psi on a stock everything else
a 3" DP is not necessary if you stay stock turbo. 2.5" will be enough for about 270hp crank
if the bigger the better theory was true, your car wouldnt run like **** with no exhaust at all
a turbo cant overspin by itself (from having a big DP) as there is counter pressure against it on the cold side.
hope this clears up some stuff. and when you think about the engine needing bckpressure, realize that the turbo itself is where it gets most of it from. the size of the turbine opening is smaller than a single exhaust port, so that in itself will provide you with enough backpressure for the low rpms, the rest of the exhaust provides a bit more but not something that you cant do without
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,345
From:
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
Have you got yours installed yet? Don't you think you should test it out first and see if its even quality before everybody starts placing orders. I would be pissed if I paid for a POS downpipe. Just sayin
I'm make believe
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,587
From: In my head
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
Some corrections
ORIGINAL: precision tt
the wastegate controlls the turbo and keps it from overspinning.
turbos overspin when not so smart people try to push them past the breaking point. iek03 pushing 25psi on a stock everything else
A ko3 can do 25psi with a chip and stock everything else, it will not procuse much power but can handle the psi.
a 3" DP is not necessary if you stay stock turbo. 2.5" will be enough for about 270hp crank
if the bigger the better theory was true, your car wouldnt run like **** with no exhaust at all.
Have you seen a turbo drag car? They just run a foot or 2 or pipe to get it out of the engine bay/cabin.
a turbo cant overspin by itself (from having a big DP) as there is counter pressure against it on the cold side.
Overspin happens from either a leak in the ic piping and it is trying to make up the psi, the vacumm line to the wastegate has a hole/tear and is bleeding out the pressure to open the wastegate, or you got someone trying to run a turbo far outside its effiency range.
also if you have a FWD there are pipes for 100 buck on e-bay, and if you spent any more you'd be wasting money. one thing to note on those ebay pipes is that they are made out of thin metal and they do vibrate.
The material is fine, its the people that dont bend the firewall cover back and it hits it over and over that makes the vibrating.
they also dont seal ll that great. they are decent but you get what you pay for.
The seal is due to the crappy gaskets they give you, i dont run any, No engine to man, man to turbo, turbo to dp. Seal is better and no risk of leaks. The only one you should run is the engine to manifold, the rest most tuners leave them out.
at this point i'm over dealing with the pipes. if you guys want them call the place up, if not then dont. for me they'll be making one either with garrett glange or k-03. i'm already upgrading the turbo so i dont care which one. as i can get the eliminator. right now i'm making a VNT garrett turbo t25/28 hybrid possibly gt30 compressor side, but not 100% confirmed.
Best paragraph so far! You will need a new manifold for a differnt turbo and getting a downpipe made with a "garrett flange" (there is various amounts) will not fit. Plus there is a huge jump from a dsm or silvia t28 and a gt28r and even bigger differnce in a gt30r. I really hope you put in more thought in this than in your ko4 build. I really do.
lastly, why dont you think that companies post dyno results on downpipes. could it be because downpipes are just a restriction. the power you gain is what you had there in the first place but was restricted by the stock pipe.
It is still more power than what you had before. They dont put them up because these forums are littered with peoples dynos.
the wastegate controlls the turbo and keps it from overspinning.
turbos overspin when not so smart people try to push them past the breaking point. iek03 pushing 25psi on a stock everything else
A ko3 can do 25psi with a chip and stock everything else, it will not procuse much power but can handle the psi.
a 3" DP is not necessary if you stay stock turbo. 2.5" will be enough for about 270hp crank
if the bigger the better theory was true, your car wouldnt run like **** with no exhaust at all.
Have you seen a turbo drag car? They just run a foot or 2 or pipe to get it out of the engine bay/cabin.
a turbo cant overspin by itself (from having a big DP) as there is counter pressure against it on the cold side.
Overspin happens from either a leak in the ic piping and it is trying to make up the psi, the vacumm line to the wastegate has a hole/tear and is bleeding out the pressure to open the wastegate, or you got someone trying to run a turbo far outside its effiency range.
also if you have a FWD there are pipes for 100 buck on e-bay, and if you spent any more you'd be wasting money. one thing to note on those ebay pipes is that they are made out of thin metal and they do vibrate.
The material is fine, its the people that dont bend the firewall cover back and it hits it over and over that makes the vibrating.
they also dont seal ll that great. they are decent but you get what you pay for.
The seal is due to the crappy gaskets they give you, i dont run any, No engine to man, man to turbo, turbo to dp. Seal is better and no risk of leaks. The only one you should run is the engine to manifold, the rest most tuners leave them out.
at this point i'm over dealing with the pipes. if you guys want them call the place up, if not then dont. for me they'll be making one either with garrett glange or k-03. i'm already upgrading the turbo so i dont care which one. as i can get the eliminator. right now i'm making a VNT garrett turbo t25/28 hybrid possibly gt30 compressor side, but not 100% confirmed.
Best paragraph so far! You will need a new manifold for a differnt turbo and getting a downpipe made with a "garrett flange" (there is various amounts) will not fit. Plus there is a huge jump from a dsm or silvia t28 and a gt28r and even bigger differnce in a gt30r. I really hope you put in more thought in this than in your ko4 build. I really do.
lastly, why dont you think that companies post dyno results on downpipes. could it be because downpipes are just a restriction. the power you gain is what you had there in the first place but was restricted by the stock pipe.
It is still more power than what you had before. They dont put them up because these forums are littered with peoples dynos.
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 282
From: San Jose
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
a k03 can handle 25psi i'm sure of it. but for how long?
the overspinning like i said, wont happen for no reason.....
unbolt your Dp from your turbo and see how much more power you make. I agree wit thhe fact that you should go to the point where the Dp creates noextra restriction, but we ran a twin turbo MR2 with just a DP and then no DP and without it it didnt perform as well as we though it would.
the material on most of the e-bay pipes is crap. the weld jobs are garbage, and the flanges are often curved. I have a chopped up one on my car right now. i paid the 100 bucks to see what i would get and it looked preety. but thats about as good as it really was. the flexpipe stuck about an inch inside of the main transition disturbing exhaust flow, and the damn resonator rattled inside. as if not fully welded.
as far as my k04 swap, i got a good price and did it.i didnt loose anything since i had to pull the tranny out anway. it worked out ok with your reccomendations and pulls strong. but not enough for me.
the garrett turbo i'm going to obviously wont bolt up to the manifold. you must think i just bought my first car. or startedworking on it. i'm going to the vnt turbos with adifferent combo compressor side to bring it to the t25/t28 specs, but a little bigger. the vnt hasadjustable vanes which help itspool up quickly then keep gonig to redline when the vanes open up. the reason why the k04 is going, is the fact that garrethasnt made the software yet. this turbo is getting a custom tune, so i figured i'llgo with something different. i dont need the power of the gt2871, although i'd like it. i'll be happy withthe power of a gt28r. I dont think the rest of the car can constantly take that much power (some may disagree)
and no, aDP on a stock turboonly brings back the power you lost due to a restrictive Dp in the first place. its not like adding a bigger turbo where you are gaining more power. all you are doing is getting some lost power back. its kind of logical.....
the overspinning like i said, wont happen for no reason.....
unbolt your Dp from your turbo and see how much more power you make. I agree wit thhe fact that you should go to the point where the Dp creates noextra restriction, but we ran a twin turbo MR2 with just a DP and then no DP and without it it didnt perform as well as we though it would.
the material on most of the e-bay pipes is crap. the weld jobs are garbage, and the flanges are often curved. I have a chopped up one on my car right now. i paid the 100 bucks to see what i would get and it looked preety. but thats about as good as it really was. the flexpipe stuck about an inch inside of the main transition disturbing exhaust flow, and the damn resonator rattled inside. as if not fully welded.
as far as my k04 swap, i got a good price and did it.i didnt loose anything since i had to pull the tranny out anway. it worked out ok with your reccomendations and pulls strong. but not enough for me.
the garrett turbo i'm going to obviously wont bolt up to the manifold. you must think i just bought my first car. or startedworking on it. i'm going to the vnt turbos with adifferent combo compressor side to bring it to the t25/t28 specs, but a little bigger. the vnt hasadjustable vanes which help itspool up quickly then keep gonig to redline when the vanes open up. the reason why the k04 is going, is the fact that garrethasnt made the software yet. this turbo is getting a custom tune, so i figured i'llgo with something different. i dont need the power of the gt2871, although i'd like it. i'll be happy withthe power of a gt28r. I dont think the rest of the car can constantly take that much power (some may disagree)
and no, aDP on a stock turboonly brings back the power you lost due to a restrictive Dp in the first place. its not like adding a bigger turbo where you are gaining more power. all you are doing is getting some lost power back. its kind of logical.....
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 282
From: San Jose
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
some more info on the turbo i want to make. VNT turbine housing, with a ball bearing center section with a idealy gt28rs compressor side. the problem will be getting the ball bearing chra to bolt up to the vnt turbine housing. the VNT t25 has been maited to a t3 housing before to produce close to 450 HP (dont know how reliable)
i'm going back to k03 till i get the turbo reworked if ever it even works out. I'm always going to change stuff around as i dont like to take the conventional way. i work on my own cars so swapping the k03 on and off the car doesnt pose a problem to me. i'll do it till i'm happy. also does anyone remember the dodge M4S concept from the 80's it used similar twin turbos to produce over 400hp. weaquired the IHI versoin of these turbos on the MR2 previously mentioned which was built by mechtech back in the early 90's and was featured in import magazines. the car puts out about 450hp at the present moment, and has doneso for over a decade.we are still not happy and going to an hks singe turbo for 550-600hp(highly modded engine)
i'm going back to k03 till i get the turbo reworked if ever it even works out. I'm always going to change stuff around as i dont like to take the conventional way. i work on my own cars so swapping the k03 on and off the car doesnt pose a problem to me. i'll do it till i'm happy. also does anyone remember the dodge M4S concept from the 80's it used similar twin turbos to produce over 400hp. weaquired the IHI versoin of these turbos on the MR2 previously mentioned which was built by mechtech back in the early 90's and was featured in import magazines. the car puts out about 450hp at the present moment, and has doneso for over a decade.we are still not happy and going to an hks singe turbo for 550-600hp(highly modded engine)
I'm make believe
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,587
From: In my head
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
ORIGINAL: precision tt
a k03 can handle 25psi i'm sure of it. but for how long? - havent seen it seen one dye yet, the people that do this get rid of them shortly thereafter.
the overspinning like i said, wont happen for no reason.....- I know, i lested the reasons how and why
unbolt your Dp from your turbo and see how much more power you make. I agree wit thhe fact that you should go to the point where the Dp creates noextra restriction, but we ran a twin turbo MR2 with just a DP and then no DP and without it it didnt perform as well as we though it would. You still need something to direct the flow away from the turbo. The outside air and random flow of the exhaust is the problem. A little downturn is all that is needed, just a little bigger that the turnine outlet.
the material on most of the e-bay pipes is crap. the weld jobs are garbage, and the flanges are often curved. -there are so many people using and an ebay downpipe and you seem to be the only one complaining. If you bought the one with the fake cat that is your problem. You need the 2 peice version and you will have no problems with the fake cat on the one peice downpipes.
as far as my k04 swap, i got a good price and did it.i didnt loose anything since i had to pull the tranny out anway. it worked out ok with your reccomendations and pulls strong. but not enough for me.
the garrett turbo i'm going to obviously wont bolt up to the manifold. you must think i just bought my first car. or startedworking on it. - no but you are rash and bought things and installed them even after warnings. i'm going to the vnt turbos you can only get those for desiel trucks and on a porshe. and how are you gettting one? with adifferent combo compressor side to bring it to the t25/t28 specs, but a little bigger. the vnt hasadjustable vanes which help itspool up quickly then keep gonig to redline when the vanes open up. the reason why the k04 is going, is the fact that garrethasnt made the software yet. this turbo is getting a custom tune, so i figured i'llgo with something different. i dont need the power of the gt2871, although i'd like it. i'll be happy withthe power of a gt28r. I dont think the rest of the car can constantly take that much power (some may disagree) The car dan take way more than that. If i was you (and im not) i would go to pagparts.com and talk to arnold. Tell him you want a t3super60 setup (little cheaper and better than a gt28r) and get everything from him. He will give you everything you need that you dont have but sw and a dp. This way you get the same power and you know it will work unlike this far fetched idea that you are pulling out of some....
a k03 can handle 25psi i'm sure of it. but for how long? - havent seen it seen one dye yet, the people that do this get rid of them shortly thereafter.
the overspinning like i said, wont happen for no reason.....- I know, i lested the reasons how and why
unbolt your Dp from your turbo and see how much more power you make. I agree wit thhe fact that you should go to the point where the Dp creates noextra restriction, but we ran a twin turbo MR2 with just a DP and then no DP and without it it didnt perform as well as we though it would. You still need something to direct the flow away from the turbo. The outside air and random flow of the exhaust is the problem. A little downturn is all that is needed, just a little bigger that the turnine outlet.
the material on most of the e-bay pipes is crap. the weld jobs are garbage, and the flanges are often curved. -there are so many people using and an ebay downpipe and you seem to be the only one complaining. If you bought the one with the fake cat that is your problem. You need the 2 peice version and you will have no problems with the fake cat on the one peice downpipes.
as far as my k04 swap, i got a good price and did it.i didnt loose anything since i had to pull the tranny out anway. it worked out ok with your reccomendations and pulls strong. but not enough for me.
the garrett turbo i'm going to obviously wont bolt up to the manifold. you must think i just bought my first car. or startedworking on it. - no but you are rash and bought things and installed them even after warnings. i'm going to the vnt turbos you can only get those for desiel trucks and on a porshe. and how are you gettting one? with adifferent combo compressor side to bring it to the t25/t28 specs, but a little bigger. the vnt hasadjustable vanes which help itspool up quickly then keep gonig to redline when the vanes open up. the reason why the k04 is going, is the fact that garrethasnt made the software yet. this turbo is getting a custom tune, so i figured i'llgo with something different. i dont need the power of the gt2871, although i'd like it. i'll be happy withthe power of a gt28r. I dont think the rest of the car can constantly take that much power (some may disagree) The car dan take way more than that. If i was you (and im not) i would go to pagparts.com and talk to arnold. Tell him you want a t3super60 setup (little cheaper and better than a gt28r) and get everything from him. He will give you everything you need that you dont have but sw and a dp. This way you get the same power and you know it will work unlike this far fetched idea that you are pulling out of some....
Thread Starter
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 282
From: San Jose
RE: 180TTQ downpipe. its getting done
the vnt25 was only produced one year by garrett for chrysler dodge, for the shelby model car. the production died and garrett got stuck with a little over 1000 trubos which they sold to shops for really cheap. you can still find them floating around new, which i did, and sometimes used. if they blow you can still find kits to rebuild them, but not complete. if the vanes go then you are out of luck. the design was only continued for diesel engines to this day, and it was never introduced as a production ugrade turbo due to the high costs and the fact that you have more parts that can break. i would not go any bigger than a gt28 series if i couldnt get rid of some lag. hopefully i can get this turbo modded if not then i loose a couple of hundred, (until i use it on some other project). the dp with the resonator chamber was crap, but i needed one temporarely with the flex pipe up top. even then it didnt work perfectly as there wasnt enough clearance to rig it up. it ended up touching the shield. it worked when the driveshaft was out but i just wasnt happy with the construction. do i notice any power loss from its defects? i guess i'll never know as i dont have another dp to dyno it against, nor would i waste the money on a temp one. what it comes down to always it that you get what you pay for. design and trying different options is the only way ofgetting results. it would be cheaper for me to just throw a t3/4 turbo on it and boost it up.
a restrictive Dp will help with initial torque on the bottom end of the power band when taking off. without the backpressure you would have a harder time taking off, but probably not that much worse. once the boost kicks in it is not needed, so its kind of a tradeoff.
also i forgot to menition that i do know the car can take more.... but for me reliability is an issue, and since modding it, i've started to notice more and more creaks and squeeks and thats making me more careful. i maintain the car, but it seems like its never enough.
and cincyTT i dont want you to think i'm trying to argue with you/ put you down. i'm on the same page on most mods apsects, i have built many motors in my garage from bikes to road race prepped datsuns and toyotas. i've built a previous motor to other people's specs that lasted me 3 days. it put out a ton of power, but it just didnt work for me. cost me 12K to complete it, and then 4k in repairs, after which it worked flawlessly, (sold it a yr later for 1k). that damn k04 has the power. and i think Kinetic did a good job on it, it just wont last at the point i had intended to push it. it was faster than my k03S, but i'm sick inside and cant stop until i get what i want.
a restrictive Dp will help with initial torque on the bottom end of the power band when taking off. without the backpressure you would have a harder time taking off, but probably not that much worse. once the boost kicks in it is not needed, so its kind of a tradeoff.
also i forgot to menition that i do know the car can take more.... but for me reliability is an issue, and since modding it, i've started to notice more and more creaks and squeeks and thats making me more careful. i maintain the car, but it seems like its never enough.
and cincyTT i dont want you to think i'm trying to argue with you/ put you down. i'm on the same page on most mods apsects, i have built many motors in my garage from bikes to road race prepped datsuns and toyotas. i've built a previous motor to other people's specs that lasted me 3 days. it put out a ton of power, but it just didnt work for me. cost me 12K to complete it, and then 4k in repairs, after which it worked flawlessly, (sold it a yr later for 1k). that damn k04 has the power. and i think Kinetic did a good job on it, it just wont last at the point i had intended to push it. it was faster than my k03S, but i'm sick inside and cant stop until i get what i want.