Let's Be Realistic
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1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 99
From:
Let's Be Realistic
People buy cars for a variety of reasons, and TT owners are no exception. We have owners, then we have enthusiasts. Furthermore, we have those who appreciate the subleties of its iconic design and we have those (like those of that other forum) who have confused the TT with a potential racecar. I tend to see the TT coupe and roadster alike as quintessential European cars of unique design and rich heritage. However, with basic bolt-ons, these cars can only go so fast-- so I'm preemptively warning a few of you (not the veterans, you guys do know what you guys are doing).. lower your expectations a little when it comes to power mods, short of a big turbo upgrade and/or displacement increase.
I'm quickly believing that only a few basic mods-- intake, catback exhaust, and a chip (preferably from either APR, REVO, or GIAC) are really all you need to bring your turbo up to the max. The other mods will surely improve the car-- such as 3" downpipe, test pipe, high-flow cats, front-mount intercooler, high-flow intake manifold-- but mostly in the area of throttle response/feel, faster spool, and sound.
Fortunately, I'm blessed to be close friends with and live near other TT enthusiasts. I have a roadster, while the other two own coupes (MY 2002). All are 225s.
((Car #1)) One guy with an ALMS edition has the most basic performance mod setup, with Modshack VTDA, **** w/ 4bar FPR, 2.5" Sebring cat-back exhaust, and APR chip.
((Car #2)) I have a Modshack VTDA, Boost Machine, 3" custom "Mufflex style" non-resonated cat-back, 3" 42DD downpipe w/ testpipe, and GIAC X+ Chip.
((Car #3)) My other friend has the Modshack VTDA, Boost Machine, Milltek Exhaust fabbed with 3" pipes, 3" 42DD downpipe w/ testpipe, Forge FMIC, all Samco hoses, 9 lb. lightweight flywheel, Dahlback intake manifold, and REVO chip. He also is experiencing 0 degrees of timing pullback. He also later added the **** w/ 4bar FPR to our test runs.. more about that later.
In 62 degree West Los Angeles weather, we ran nearly 20-30 runs with plenty of cool-downs to talk about our results. (BTW, we have crappy 91 octane here.) We then informally conducted 3rd gear, 3k RPM to redline pulls on each other. We chose 3k since this is right outside the turbo's powerband and thus launch-timing wouldn't be as much as a factor. All Boost Machines were uncalibrated and turned off. Airflow measurements and fuel trims were all measured normal. Timing was pulled back as necessary. All cars did a throttle body alignment prior to runs, as well.
Granted, this is very informal and possibly inaccurate, but the number of runs we conducted has convinced me and my friends quite well. Given the number of my friends mods on Car #3, both Car #1 (basic mods) and my car both kept up easily. Car #3's turbo would spool quicker initially (possibly due to the addition of the downpipe and intake manifold), but after that short jump would not pull on either of the lesser modded cars. To his chagrin, Car #1, with the **** and 4bar FPR, even began to pull a tad in the mid-high rev range! This however changed immediately, with some adaptation, when Car #3 installed his own **** and 4bar FPR. Their cars ran even, with no discernable pull from 5k-6k RPM. They are believers-- the **** works!
In the end, I would have to conclude that the most basic of mods truly push the stock K04-20 turbo to the max. You can't get much more safe, useable power from it. Mods such as FMIC, downpipe, and possibly DV relo (never tried it) are really worth it, but don't expect it to make your car insanely quicker. They're also fairly pricey. Nevertheless, these types of mods do help tremendously with quicker spool, lower temps, better response, throttle feel, throatier sound, and more consistency. These benefits do make the car better, not necessarily faster.
I'm quickly believing that only a few basic mods-- intake, catback exhaust, and a chip (preferably from either APR, REVO, or GIAC) are really all you need to bring your turbo up to the max. The other mods will surely improve the car-- such as 3" downpipe, test pipe, high-flow cats, front-mount intercooler, high-flow intake manifold-- but mostly in the area of throttle response/feel, faster spool, and sound.
Fortunately, I'm blessed to be close friends with and live near other TT enthusiasts. I have a roadster, while the other two own coupes (MY 2002). All are 225s.
((Car #1)) One guy with an ALMS edition has the most basic performance mod setup, with Modshack VTDA, **** w/ 4bar FPR, 2.5" Sebring cat-back exhaust, and APR chip.
((Car #2)) I have a Modshack VTDA, Boost Machine, 3" custom "Mufflex style" non-resonated cat-back, 3" 42DD downpipe w/ testpipe, and GIAC X+ Chip.
((Car #3)) My other friend has the Modshack VTDA, Boost Machine, Milltek Exhaust fabbed with 3" pipes, 3" 42DD downpipe w/ testpipe, Forge FMIC, all Samco hoses, 9 lb. lightweight flywheel, Dahlback intake manifold, and REVO chip. He also is experiencing 0 degrees of timing pullback. He also later added the **** w/ 4bar FPR to our test runs.. more about that later.
In 62 degree West Los Angeles weather, we ran nearly 20-30 runs with plenty of cool-downs to talk about our results. (BTW, we have crappy 91 octane here.) We then informally conducted 3rd gear, 3k RPM to redline pulls on each other. We chose 3k since this is right outside the turbo's powerband and thus launch-timing wouldn't be as much as a factor. All Boost Machines were uncalibrated and turned off. Airflow measurements and fuel trims were all measured normal. Timing was pulled back as necessary. All cars did a throttle body alignment prior to runs, as well.
Granted, this is very informal and possibly inaccurate, but the number of runs we conducted has convinced me and my friends quite well. Given the number of my friends mods on Car #3, both Car #1 (basic mods) and my car both kept up easily. Car #3's turbo would spool quicker initially (possibly due to the addition of the downpipe and intake manifold), but after that short jump would not pull on either of the lesser modded cars. To his chagrin, Car #1, with the **** and 4bar FPR, even began to pull a tad in the mid-high rev range! This however changed immediately, with some adaptation, when Car #3 installed his own **** and 4bar FPR. Their cars ran even, with no discernable pull from 5k-6k RPM. They are believers-- the **** works!
In the end, I would have to conclude that the most basic of mods truly push the stock K04-20 turbo to the max. You can't get much more safe, useable power from it. Mods such as FMIC, downpipe, and possibly DV relo (never tried it) are really worth it, but don't expect it to make your car insanely quicker. They're also fairly pricey. Nevertheless, these types of mods do help tremendously with quicker spool, lower temps, better response, throttle feel, throatier sound, and more consistency. These benefits do make the car better, not necessarily faster.
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,198
From:
RE: Let's Be Realistic
Pretty interesting test. Can you space it into paragraphs though so it's easier to read please?
Well ya see...
Water methanol injection is perfectly safe and a perfectly good way to squeeze an extra 30 or so HP out of your engine. That's basically the difference a chip makes.
It cools your intake charge subambient (that means much cooler than the overpriced VTDA you bought), cleans out carbon deposits (which on an old car could free up some hp and definitely increase smoothness) and prevents detonation (letting you run more timing = more power). Oh and btw, now that the air coming out of your turbo is getting cooled down drastically, you can run 25+ PSI too, if you crank your wastegate. Not sure just how much a K04 will do, but savwko on vortex ran 27 PSI on his K03s. Made 250whp or so.
But generally you're right, you can't crank too much more out of stock turbos. Then again savwko got +100whp out of his K03s...but that was $3000 of mods.
That's cuz with the stock turbos, the 1.8T's don't make any discernable power after 5500k 
In the end, I would have to conclude that the most basic of mods truly push the stock K04-20 turbo to the max. You can't get much more safe, useable power
Water methanol injection is perfectly safe and a perfectly good way to squeeze an extra 30 or so HP out of your engine. That's basically the difference a chip makes.
It cools your intake charge subambient (that means much cooler than the overpriced VTDA you bought), cleans out carbon deposits (which on an old car could free up some hp and definitely increase smoothness) and prevents detonation (letting you run more timing = more power). Oh and btw, now that the air coming out of your turbo is getting cooled down drastically, you can run 25+ PSI too, if you crank your wastegate. Not sure just how much a K04 will do, but savwko on vortex ran 27 PSI on his K03s. Made 250whp or so.
But generally you're right, you can't crank too much more out of stock turbos. Then again savwko got +100whp out of his K03s...but that was $3000 of mods.
Their cars ran even, with no discernable pull from 5k-6k RPM.
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,349
From: Everywhere
RE: Let's Be Realistic
nice write-up
the TT is a great car because it is flexible... it can be your daily driver or you can put some serious time and money into it...
i agree a stock turbo does have its limits as do all turbos
BUT - for those who heavily mod their car i think it is very realistic to see some "racecar" like gains
just my .02 cents
the TT is a great car because it is flexible... it can be your daily driver or you can put some serious time and money into it...
i agree a stock turbo does have its limits as do all turbos
BUT - for those who heavily mod their car i think it is very realistic to see some "racecar" like gains
just my .02 cents
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,362
From: Columbus, GA
RE: Let's Be Realistic
ORIGINAL: Murderface
Water methanol injection is perfectly safe and a perfectly good way to squeeze an extra 30 or so HP out of your engine. That's basically the difference a chip makes.
Water methanol injection is perfectly safe and a perfectly good way to squeeze an extra 30 or so HP out of your engine. That's basically the difference a chip makes.
Im curious what other people think about that. Im by no means a subject matter expert
1st Gear
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 437
RE: Let's Be Realistic
not sure where i read this or if it a realistic stat, but i think someone said something about the apr chips adapting well to other mods
anyways nice write up, i wish there was one or two tt's in my area, matt is prob 45min + from me, we just havnt had the chance to meet up
we'll have to get some 180 vs 225 comparisons lol
anyways nice write up, i wish there was one or two tt's in my area, matt is prob 45min + from me, we just havnt had the chance to meet up
we'll have to get some 180 vs 225 comparisons lol
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,198
From:
RE: Let's Be Realistic
ORIGINAL : neur0tic
You're kidding right? do you legitimatelly think you'll get 30HP from w/m alone? I have the stage 2 MAF dual nozzle kit from snowperformance (though it isnt installed yet) and I hardly expected anywhere near that type of gains from it without the addition of the Vag-Com/Unitronics. without advancing your timing you shouldn't get anywhere near that should you? Even with the timing advance I'd imagine the gain would be closer to 20whp.
You're kidding right? do you legitimatelly think you'll get 30HP from w/m alone? I have the stage 2 MAF dual nozzle kit from snowperformance (though it isnt installed yet) and I hardly expected anywhere near that type of gains from it without the addition of the Vag-Com/Unitronics. without advancing your timing you shouldn't get anywhere near that should you? Even with the timing advance I'd imagine the gain would be closer to 20whp.
ORIGINA: Murderface
It cools your intake charge subambient (that means much cooler than the overpriced VTDA you bought), cleans out carbon deposits (which on an old car could free up some hp and definitely increase smoothness) and prevents detonation (letting you run more timing = more power).
It cools your intake charge subambient (that means much cooler than the overpriced VTDA you bought), cleans out carbon deposits (which on an old car could free up some hp and definitely increase smoothness) and prevents detonation (letting you run more timing = more power).
Anyway, +30whp is very possbile.
Running watermeth means you can run your 93 octane like it's 103 octane. So, you get cooler air + running more boost + more timing. You can even add the nitro booster from SnowPerformance into your w/m mix for a little more kick. And on a big turbo...the gains can be even bigger.
ORIGINAL: TurboGTi222 on Vortex
My first dyno pull on the 28rs was 249whp, untuned, 93 octane. THEN on the same dyno session, i engaged the meth, cranked up the boost, and advanced the timing 13*, and saw 292whp. You do the math. This was with zero fuel tweaks, just timing and boost+meth. I'd say that with more tuning,i could have picked up considerably more by getting the fuel right. 60whp is not far fetched at all.
My first dyno pull on the 28rs was 249whp, untuned, 93 octane. THEN on the same dyno session, i engaged the meth, cranked up the boost, and advanced the timing 13*, and saw 292whp. You do the math. This was with zero fuel tweaks, just timing and boost+meth. I'd say that with more tuning,i could have picked up considerably more by getting the fuel right. 60whp is not far fetched at all.
More evidence, dyno from an A3, before and after watermeth. They didn't run any more boost, just more timing:
About +20whp on the same amount of boost.
Believe me yet?
I'm make believe
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,587
From: In my head
RE: Let's Be Realistic
So is this a Modshake Sale thread? I read the first post and there is basically no useful info done. Plus when you say the best mods are an intake, catback, and a chip max out the turbo, that makes me question you gravitt. The intake and catback together gain less than a 42dd dp will by itself. Also saying an intake is more important than a fmic is just silly also. Why do you think #3 didnt see any timing pull? THATS RIGHT, his iat was way lower than both or yours, thus making more power. The cooler denser air and the more important timing was kept. As for the intake manifold, that more than likely hurt perfomance on a stock turbo than anything else and it being a Dalhback, (tested worst out of all the 1.8t aftermarketmanifolds) deffinatly didnt help all to much.
As for the testing, the turbos spool faster than at 3k, and by doing that, the people with dp's loss that advantage. So of course everyone is going to stay together since everyone will be spooled and withen simular hp (since you will be falling out of the tq's powerband at 4k and thats were the truepower is made with the tiny turbos).
Finally the praise that the **** works.....ROFLMAO!!! That is the most worthless crap i have ever heard. Testing the cars from 5k out is like racing a honda and shifting at 3k rpms. If that makes you guys believers, makes you guys bigger Steve nutswingers.
To conclude, i would not take these things as proof of anything since it was a poorly exicuted test and nothing was actually provin.
As for the testing, the turbos spool faster than at 3k, and by doing that, the people with dp's loss that advantage. So of course everyone is going to stay together since everyone will be spooled and withen simular hp (since you will be falling out of the tq's powerband at 4k and thats were the truepower is made with the tiny turbos).
Finally the praise that the **** works.....ROFLMAO!!! That is the most worthless crap i have ever heard. Testing the cars from 5k out is like racing a honda and shifting at 3k rpms. If that makes you guys believers, makes you guys bigger Steve nutswingers.
To conclude, i would not take these things as proof of anything since it was a poorly exicuted test and nothing was actually provin.