turbo upgrade help
#61
04-03-2011, 12:29 PM
The PC16 file has one big strike against it: fueling. It is written for your stock injectors being pushed by a 5bar fuel regulator. But if you are running 1bar of boost in the intake manifold, the fuel pump now has to maintain a steady 6bar of pressure to maintain proper A/F. That's a lot to ask of your 12+ year old pump. On top of that, the OEM fuel injectors -- even at 5bar -- are still very modest. Hampered by that, the car's performance is well short of what the turbo could deliver.
Custom tuners such as Malone or C2 start with proper fueling (440cc Green Giants), and build from that. If you want a 440cc file from Unitronic, you're looking at "big turbo" pricing. Owch.
Custom tuners such as Malone or C2 start with proper fueling (440cc Green Giants), and build from that. If you want a 440cc file from Unitronic, you're looking at "big turbo" pricing. Owch.
New injectors are a most (I firmly believe that the stock ones (210cc?) are already being a major limitation for me (see logs I posted, with injectors running 16.32 ms time from 2400/min on; MUST be limiting. Just surprised that I don't get lean codes).
Is the stock pump known to fail under higher boost (say 2 bar)? I have not read that anyone really upgraded the fuel pump (with KKK based turbos).
BT pricing: yeah, that's out of question. I can see $300 for a GIAC PC16, but that is where I draw the line (for this car; student budget).
Would love to get a 42lb file, but a glance at C2 Motorsport shows $600 (including 3" MAF housing; VR6 go for around $50 I think).
#62
04-03-2011, 12:46 PM
One other thing to try would be the MAF mod. Basically you just swap in a bigger 3" MAF housingm from a VR6 and run equally bigger injectors. The two changes cancel each other out, and since your AEB has no MAP sensor the car doesn't go into limp when it boosts higher to meet airflow requests. Let me know if you want more info on this.
Lets assume the stock is 2.5, the VR6 is 3.0.
Is the ratio you refer to the diameter? Then 3.0/2.5=1.2
Or is it by the velocity/volume ratio: 3.0exp2/2.5exp2=9.0/6.25=1.44
Now we have the ratio. Say 1.44. Does it mean that I can swap the stock 210cc for 1.44x210=302cc injectors with the stock tune, and everything is the same?
Or the GIAC PC16 (31 lb) and same 1.44 ratio would lead to a 44 lb injector?
Has someone done it (run larger injector with larger MAF housing on same file, be it GIAC, stock or else)? Does it work with negatively impacting driveability (idle, low rpm)?
GIAC PC16 and 3" MAF housing and 42lb injectors (3 bar) would sound like a nice setup (and I can get 8 Cobra injectors 41.5 lb at 3 bar for $100 shipped!!!, plus a VR6 housing for $50: $450 with tune, injectors and a MAF than can handle 200 g/s).
#63
04-03-2011, 01:05 PM
Vr6 maf 3"
Are these the part numbers for the VR6 3" MAF to be use as an upgrade for the AEB 1.8T?
Bosch 0280218018 / 0280218017
Also found this part number: 078133471E
Bosch 0280218018 / 0280218017
Also found this part number: 078133471E
Last edited by vtraudt; 04-03-2011 at 01:12 PM.
#64
04-04-2011, 09:03 AM
3" MAF mod (it's a hack, really)
Stock MAF housing is 60mm Inside Dimension
OBD1 VR6 MAF housing is 70mm ID
The differential in area is 36%. Simply put, 36% more air is passing by the meter than it's reporting. To compensate, you change the fuel injector capacity by the same factor.
Stock injectors are rated 210cc at 3bar. Multiply that by 1.36 and your new injector rating is 285cc. Bosch 0280156065 injectors for the AWM motor are rated 278cc at 3bar, a very good match. The operating pressure for the AEB motor is 4bar, so your actual flow capacity is 320cc. Not a huge amount of fuel, but if you want to run a bigger turbo on a chipped ecu, this is how to do it. For more info on this mod, see this thread.
#65
04-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Stock MAF housing is 60mm Inside Dimension
OBD1 VR6 MAF housing is 70mm ID
The differential in area is 36%. Simply put, 36% more air is passing by the meter than it's reporting. To compensate, you change the fuel injector capacity by the same factor.
Stock injectors are rated 210cc at 3bar. Multiply that by 1.36 and your new injector rating is 285cc. Bosch 0280156065 injectors for the AWM motor are rated 278cc at 3bar, a very good match. The operating pressure for the AEB motor is 4bar, so your actual flow capacity is 320cc. Not a huge amount of fuel, but if you want to run a bigger turbo on a chipped ecu, this is how to do it. For more info on this mod, see this thread.
I will look for the Bosch you mentioned right away. "OBD1 VR6": what year VR6 do I need to look for? I would like to test your suggestion on the current setup.
Regarding GIAC PC16: Would the same principle apply to the PC16?
It calls for 325cc injectors (31 lb). With the VR6 housing (x1.36) would lead to exactly 440cc (42 lb) injectors, effectively 'stretching' the fuel for (hopefully) higher possible flows from the turbo. If that works, it would be great (and i would settle for this combination).
Is anyone running 42lb injectors with VR MAF?
On AEB?
What are the shortfalls?
#67
04-30-2011, 09:38 AM
so i finally got the eurodyne tune installed and im gettin 11psi, somethins gotta be wrong i should be gettin 17 pretty sure... but also i have and issue with my idle, it works fine on low rpm and hight rpm. but when it tends to hit like 2500 it chokes so i pump the gas and then it starts to go have no idea what it could be.. also a code p1545..i cleaned the throttle body already... any suggestions
#68
04-30-2011, 10:26 AM
Timing pull log
Just to complete the info on this thread: I logged a bit more, this time also the 022 block. Timing pull starts around 3600 rpm, increases up to 4.0-4.5 degree (cyl 3 always a bit more than the rest). What does it tell?
Timing readings on block 003 are the actual timing readings, you want to log block 022 to see how much timing the ecu is pulling in each cylinder.
How can the ECU cut boost because the car is running lean? It isn't like your ndbw ECu is even using the 02 sensor reading during WOT, it only uses it during Idle/PT. This is why it is so much harder for the tuners to make good tunes for the ndbw cars and why you see so many running either rich or lean at WOT. The narrow band ECU's dont have a target(spec) AFR to look at during WOT like the wide band cars.
The WG duty cycle is a set value based on throttle position, rpm and engine load. So if it is dropping it is because one of them is not what it should be.
As for injector on time, yes it can seeing that the ECU can leave them on as long as it wants. Hell I saw injector readings on my K03 setup that were well into the 30's.
BTW what does 7k have to do with a K03 or K04? Anyone running that size turbo to 7k is out of their mind seeing that both the K03/K04 are pretty much out of breath by 5500-6k rpm when pushing high boost. On my K03 setup I was shifting gears way before 6k.
How can the ECU cut boost because the car is running lean? It isn't like your ndbw ECu is even using the 02 sensor reading during WOT, it only uses it during Idle/PT. This is why it is so much harder for the tuners to make good tunes for the ndbw cars and why you see so many running either rich or lean at WOT. The narrow band ECU's dont have a target(spec) AFR to look at during WOT like the wide band cars.
The WG duty cycle is a set value based on throttle position, rpm and engine load. So if it is dropping it is because one of them is not what it should be.
As for injector on time, yes it can seeing that the ECU can leave them on as long as it wants. Hell I saw injector readings on my K03 setup that were well into the 30's.
BTW what does 7k have to do with a K03 or K04? Anyone running that size turbo to 7k is out of their mind seeing that both the K03/K04 are pretty much out of breath by 5500-6k rpm when pushing high boost. On my K03 setup I was shifting gears way before 6k.
#69
04-30-2011, 10:29 AM
Eurodyne tune
so i finally got the eurodyne tune installed and im gettin 11psi, somethins gotta be wrong i should be gettin 17 pretty sure... but also i have and issue with my idle, it works fine on low rpm and hight rpm. but when it tends to hit like 2500 it chokes so i pump the gas and then it starts to go have no idea what it could be.. also a code p1545..i cleaned the throttle body already... any suggestions
What turbo did you end up using?
What injectors are you running?
What mods are currently installed?
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