Sleeper Theory
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1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 15
From: Klamath Falls, OR
Sleeper Theory
Hey all,
Call this a theoretical post, hoping for a spot to vent some midnight insomniac ideas (ironic, as I'm looking at sleeper builds). To preface, so that you all know I'm not entirely full of sh*t, I'm a backyard mechanic at heart but have done a stint of work at Daimler-Benz as a design engineer and Boeing as a quality engineer (returning to work next summer after a leave of absence).
That said, I am the proud owner of a B5 A4 Quattro 5-speed, 184,000 miles and counting, and have been browsing some of the sleeper builds out there. Between entry level big turbo builds, 4.2 V8 swaps, S4 2.7 twin-turbo swaps and even the less-frequent RS motor swaps. I wanted to bounce some ideas back and forth and see what others had in mind.
I do have some personal preference in the matter; I'd consider this a dream build sheet, but here are my parameters:
1) Versatility: We own luxury cars. Sure, they're sporty, but hell no I don't want to ditch my heated seats or cruise control. If it's a streetable swap or upgrade that can still manage to get decent fuel economy and not require 104 octane, it'll get points in my book. After all, it can't be a sleeper if it's a track-only machine. Furthermore, negating or eliminating painful amounts of understeer and retaining Quattro are top-tier priorities.
2) Reliability: The B5 platform is old enough that we know it's little perks and quirks and shortcomings; the 2.8 and 1.8T are famously reliable, the 2.7 twin-turbo leaks from nearly every orifice known to man, the B6 S4 V8 has the dreaded timing chain tensioner/guide failure, etc. These reliability issues will only compound much further with upgrades; while sourcing a low-mileage, totaled donor car can certainly be an option, a fully-forged bottom end will quickly run up the budget, and a stock one will need to be pushed to its limits.
3) Feasibility: A 5.2 V10 swap with twin-turbos and a fully-forged bottom end seem out of the question, simply because with that kind of cash and determination, you might as well pick up the R8 it came in. Feasibility, at least to me, requires that the build be budget-friendly relative to the cost of the car, the drivetrain components from bumper-to-bumper are compatible and won't destroy each other, and equally important, don't require any overtly major modifications to frame, subframe or unibody systems.
4) Sound: Personally, I love the unsophisticated, God-clearing-His-throat sound of American muscle. On the other end of the spectrum, the note of the 1.8T (which I have in my car and have kept the stock exhaust to prevent) is much too...4-cylinder for my tastes. There are some exhaust systems that bring out a bit of the sweeter tones, but really, with such a small-displacement engine with no bottom-end to begin with, there isn't much to accentuate. The 2.7 S4 motor sounds rather high-strung, but can certainly sound good; the VR6 has always reminded me of an angry Chewbacca, to its credit, and I don't have enough experience with the 2.8 to make any mean judgments about it. The 4.2 has a special place in my heart for mixing sophistication and V8 rumble.
5) Overall "sleepiness:" vacuum- or electronically-operated exhaust baffles, distributing width of tires between front and rear as compromise to power while keeping it all on the pavement, mild suspension alterations, clever exhaust plumbing to keep the stock driver-side exit two-port pipes, and (in my opinion) most importantly, keeping the A4 and 1.8T badges plastered on are all bonus points here.
Without further ado, here are some builds I've had in mind:
> 2.7 twin-turbo, upgraded K04 or GTXXXX turbochargers, RS4 injectors, six-speed manual, upgraded, baffled exhaust with cutouts. Keeping the front end light(ish) due to little added weight balances out any further understeer issues. At this point it'd be wiser to take an S4 and rebadge it.
(250 hp/250 torque, stock; 350+ with said upgrades).
> 4.2L (32V) supercharged. Lots of write-ups on this particular swap; throw on a supercharger and a competent tune and there's a whole lot of power that, with clever exhaust setup, can be virtually undetectable at idle. However, fuel economy can be thrown out the window in next to a 1.8T, and the latter with some sound upgrades could make appreciably comparable power.
(296 hp/295 torque, stock; by my rough calculations, 360+ with a supercharger and no intercooling; supporting fuel delivery parts difficult to source)
> B8 3.0 Supercharged V6. Sourcing out a donor car may prove a bit difficult, and I haven't seen much on a swap of this sort. With the engine out, however, it's not too sacrilegious to tune it, rebuild it, upgrade pulleys, etc.
(333 hp/329 torque, stock; highly tuneable setup, evidenced by many YouTube videos and various online experiments)
> 2.2L Inline 5 out of the Audi 5000. Don't know enough about this one, but it seems to be a pretty solid favorite. I imagine it'd be difficult to support as far as replacing/repairing parts or finding aftermarket upgrades.
> Upgraded VR6. Done before, lots of power, lots of support, quite a favorite for racing setups. Tame when stock, but takes very well to upgrades, which the aftermarket has vigorously supported.
For the turbocharger variants of these build ideas, a selectable, variable boost controller can make daily driving a breeze; it may even increase component (and tire) longevity. Supercharged options may need to rely on pulleying up or down or striking a nice balance for both daily driving and embarrassing the local Mustang driver down the road.
Thoughts, feedback, comments, criticism appreciated. Thanks for reading! It's now 3am on a school night. Goodnight!
Call this a theoretical post, hoping for a spot to vent some midnight insomniac ideas (ironic, as I'm looking at sleeper builds). To preface, so that you all know I'm not entirely full of sh*t, I'm a backyard mechanic at heart but have done a stint of work at Daimler-Benz as a design engineer and Boeing as a quality engineer (returning to work next summer after a leave of absence).
That said, I am the proud owner of a B5 A4 Quattro 5-speed, 184,000 miles and counting, and have been browsing some of the sleeper builds out there. Between entry level big turbo builds, 4.2 V8 swaps, S4 2.7 twin-turbo swaps and even the less-frequent RS motor swaps. I wanted to bounce some ideas back and forth and see what others had in mind.
I do have some personal preference in the matter; I'd consider this a dream build sheet, but here are my parameters:
1) Versatility: We own luxury cars. Sure, they're sporty, but hell no I don't want to ditch my heated seats or cruise control. If it's a streetable swap or upgrade that can still manage to get decent fuel economy and not require 104 octane, it'll get points in my book. After all, it can't be a sleeper if it's a track-only machine. Furthermore, negating or eliminating painful amounts of understeer and retaining Quattro are top-tier priorities.
2) Reliability: The B5 platform is old enough that we know it's little perks and quirks and shortcomings; the 2.8 and 1.8T are famously reliable, the 2.7 twin-turbo leaks from nearly every orifice known to man, the B6 S4 V8 has the dreaded timing chain tensioner/guide failure, etc. These reliability issues will only compound much further with upgrades; while sourcing a low-mileage, totaled donor car can certainly be an option, a fully-forged bottom end will quickly run up the budget, and a stock one will need to be pushed to its limits.
3) Feasibility: A 5.2 V10 swap with twin-turbos and a fully-forged bottom end seem out of the question, simply because with that kind of cash and determination, you might as well pick up the R8 it came in. Feasibility, at least to me, requires that the build be budget-friendly relative to the cost of the car, the drivetrain components from bumper-to-bumper are compatible and won't destroy each other, and equally important, don't require any overtly major modifications to frame, subframe or unibody systems.
4) Sound: Personally, I love the unsophisticated, God-clearing-His-throat sound of American muscle. On the other end of the spectrum, the note of the 1.8T (which I have in my car and have kept the stock exhaust to prevent) is much too...4-cylinder for my tastes. There are some exhaust systems that bring out a bit of the sweeter tones, but really, with such a small-displacement engine with no bottom-end to begin with, there isn't much to accentuate. The 2.7 S4 motor sounds rather high-strung, but can certainly sound good; the VR6 has always reminded me of an angry Chewbacca, to its credit, and I don't have enough experience with the 2.8 to make any mean judgments about it. The 4.2 has a special place in my heart for mixing sophistication and V8 rumble.
5) Overall "sleepiness:" vacuum- or electronically-operated exhaust baffles, distributing width of tires between front and rear as compromise to power while keeping it all on the pavement, mild suspension alterations, clever exhaust plumbing to keep the stock driver-side exit two-port pipes, and (in my opinion) most importantly, keeping the A4 and 1.8T badges plastered on are all bonus points here.
Without further ado, here are some builds I've had in mind:
> 2.7 twin-turbo, upgraded K04 or GTXXXX turbochargers, RS4 injectors, six-speed manual, upgraded, baffled exhaust with cutouts. Keeping the front end light(ish) due to little added weight balances out any further understeer issues. At this point it'd be wiser to take an S4 and rebadge it.
(250 hp/250 torque, stock; 350+ with said upgrades).
> 4.2L (32V) supercharged. Lots of write-ups on this particular swap; throw on a supercharger and a competent tune and there's a whole lot of power that, with clever exhaust setup, can be virtually undetectable at idle. However, fuel economy can be thrown out the window in next to a 1.8T, and the latter with some sound upgrades could make appreciably comparable power.
(296 hp/295 torque, stock; by my rough calculations, 360+ with a supercharger and no intercooling; supporting fuel delivery parts difficult to source)
> B8 3.0 Supercharged V6. Sourcing out a donor car may prove a bit difficult, and I haven't seen much on a swap of this sort. With the engine out, however, it's not too sacrilegious to tune it, rebuild it, upgrade pulleys, etc.
(333 hp/329 torque, stock; highly tuneable setup, evidenced by many YouTube videos and various online experiments)
> 2.2L Inline 5 out of the Audi 5000. Don't know enough about this one, but it seems to be a pretty solid favorite. I imagine it'd be difficult to support as far as replacing/repairing parts or finding aftermarket upgrades.
> Upgraded VR6. Done before, lots of power, lots of support, quite a favorite for racing setups. Tame when stock, but takes very well to upgrades, which the aftermarket has vigorously supported.
For the turbocharger variants of these build ideas, a selectable, variable boost controller can make daily driving a breeze; it may even increase component (and tire) longevity. Supercharged options may need to rely on pulleying up or down or striking a nice balance for both daily driving and embarrassing the local Mustang driver down the road.
Thoughts, feedback, comments, criticism appreciated. Thanks for reading! It's now 3am on a school night. Goodnight!
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,149
From: Cincy
I'm going to be honest: I didn't read your entire post, by I used to think the same way when I was a 19 year old Honda guy. I had a 1990 2 door Accord EX with the factory LED spoiler (when no one even knew what LEDs were). I always wanted to put a SB 350ci in it, but it never became anything more than a dream.
I have a 1.8t with 305,000 miles on all stock motor and tranny - and I'm pushing 22psi w/o any issues. You're lucky enough to have the quattro. If I were you, I would just keep it simple and put twin turbos on it (one small, for stealthy anti-lag) and a huge one, for 500+ hp (or however much you can make). Wait until you break something, then replace it with something better (IE Forged pistons, etc).
That's my opinion anyway.
I have a 1.8t with 305,000 miles on all stock motor and tranny - and I'm pushing 22psi w/o any issues. You're lucky enough to have the quattro. If I were you, I would just keep it simple and put twin turbos on it (one small, for stealthy anti-lag) and a huge one, for 500+ hp (or however much you can make). Wait until you break something, then replace it with something better (IE Forged pistons, etc).
That's my opinion anyway.
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